Things to know about Obama!!

[Smurfwicked]

First off, let me make it clear that I don't think poorly of anybody who disagrees with me on Obama being Anti-American or not. I guess it all goes to what you know, been taught and how you was raised. I respect anybody who I really feel wants the best our country even if I think their choice is a mistake IMO.

Here's a few more examples why I think Barrack Obama is anti-american:
http://lonestartimes.com/images/2008/02/screenhunter_184.jpg
One of Barak Hussein Obama's new offices in Texas is proudly flying a Cuban flag emblazoned with a picture of Che Guevara.
Source: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1969131/posts

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OBAMA REFUSED TO PUT HIS HAND ON HIS HEART DURING THE PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE
During a rendition of the national anthem when the flag is displayed all present except those in uniform should stand at attention facing the flag with the right hand over the heart. - That is just the "American Way"

Need I say more? Probably so. So here goes...

Ok, so you will not wear the American flag pin either... Why not? Is it because your wife has never been proud of this country before? Seen here:
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First time ever in your adult life you've been proud of your country? Did you fall of turnip truck yesterday? You should be honored with our country for having the freedom to stand up there and say such nonsense!

Ok Barrack, what about education? Wait, a year from now, you think my 4yr old son needs to recieve sex education in kindergarten? Come on, now...
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And here everybody is voting for you because you say change in politics and we don't need another 4 years of Bush's policies in the White House. But here you are saying a majority of what you vote yes for was actually introduced by republicans and George Bush himself:
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I could honestly go on and on, and might do so later, but for now I'm more concerned with getting prepared for a hurricane evacuation.

Anybody care to challenge I would greatly appreciate it :) But please provide sources of information if you expect me to take you seriously cause anybody can speak their mind without providing factual information. As you have seen each video about Obama came straight from his own words. By the way Obama, Don't tell me words don't matter! ;)

[shayna107]

put 2 BBQ ribs on a plates, ones looks and seems better then the other
so your going to pick one?

but if there was a juicy $60 prime rib on the plate (a REAL choice)

?

[Smurfwicked]

put 2 BBQ ribs on a plates, ones looks and seems better then the other
so your going to pick one?

but if there was a juicy $60 prime rib on the plate (a REAL choice)

?

Very good analogy (Y) but I would've used Bud Light over Natural Light :cheers:

[shayna107]

it's unbelievable America is falling for these dumb dumbs

[gowanstl24]

I'm an Obama supporter 100%.

I don't get how being raised a certain way has anything to do with someone's opinion as an adult. I was raised in a family that was Christian/Republican, but I grew up to be a free-thinker, not out of spite or anything, it just happened. For years I was straining to believe in ways that didn't make sense to me and one day in my late teens/early 20s, I just got tired of believing in what other people said I should believe in. I know some people are afraid of change, or some are just limited thinkers, so if they are raised as, say, bigots, many grow up with that same Neanderthal viewpoint.

Anyway, I already gave my opinion about the Pledge in this (http://www.myspacepros.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19390&page=5)thread. I won't rehash it here, but I'll just say that I did the exact same thing one day on accident....in uniform. Bone-headed mistakes happen to the best of us.

As for the lapel pin, If I was a senator, I wouldn't wear one either. I remember rolling my eyes years ago when I first saw these things on everyone's jackets - long before this or the last election. I thought what that pin was turning into was so obvious, yet so many jumped on that bandwagon.

I call it the pied piper syndrome. Some Americans say, "Go to church or you are a bad person," and that sentiment alone makes thousands of people, who would rather stay home on Sundays, go to church so they don't look bad - not because they really want to.

Some people say, "Hate black people or you are not a true patriot," and they grow up acting racist so their family, or members of their town won't look at them funny.

Lee Greenwood is the pied piper of patriotism. If you hate that song, you are a Nazi, so everyone better love God Bless the U.S.A. as much as the Star Spangled Banner, or there is something seriously wrong with you. This song was played every year at the Marine Corps Ball, and it felt like you were being pushed to be proud of a faulty nation, like propaganda in a way. It was played after the National Anthem and the Marine Corps Hymn. It was an official event and it shouldn't have been played until later on in the evening.

Senators wear that lapel pin like mindless drones. Is it written in some political rulebook that one must wear that pin? No. Just like everything else I mentioned, either you go with the grain or people think you are anti-American, anti-social, whatever. Obama was making a point. How many senators have proudly displayed that lapel pin and then did something wrong or illegal? It's crap, and Obama is trying to show his patriotism through actions, not a pin that some one, somewhere, is making money off of anyway.

As far as that flag - idk, but what if that woman is Cuban? This is America, and she has every right to fly that flag, even if everyone else is revolted by it. That lady is not Obama. He might not agree with it, but it's her office. It doesn't change my opinion of Obama.

Basically, I don't believe the spin that is put on political articles. I try to separate the facts from the bs, include life experience, and make an educated decision from there. I don't need to go to some rabblerouser's political blog and then act all like, "YA! Everything this guy online said makes perfect sense! The spin makes everything more logical! My opinion is now formed. Thank you r4nd0mdude1990."

Also, I agreed with Michelle when she said she was proud of the US for the first time...I felt the same way, as do many other Americans. I was sitting with my husband watching that and I said, "Thank you! Finally someone else isn't afraid to say that." One can still be proud to live in a free country but not be happy with its leaders or other faults.

It feels like we as a nation are finally evolving and that's why I agree with her. There is nothing wrong with feeling like that (unless everyone else tells you there's something wrong, right? :rolleyes:)

For the record, I don't consider myself a Democrat or Republican. I have strong opinions on both sides.

[Mimi]

I am so tired of people mentioning the national anthem thing. Not putting your hand over your heart doesn't make you any less American. I don't do it... period, but I do stand out of respect.

The video about Michelle Obama, I could really careless. It's so funny how people over exaggerate things. ORLY? This means that she wanted to have the American flag burned? She said she wasn't proud, she didn't say she hated the country or anything similar :no:.

The video about Barack Obama & sex education, I have no comment seeing as though the video is biased and didn't play it in it's entirety.

Same thing with the last video. They cut it off purposely so I can't even comment on it.

I would never vote for McCain, esp since he's against gay marriages. I particularly do not agree with the lifestyle since I believe God made two genders for a reason but being different from me doesn't make you any less human. I bet soon enough they're gonna say homosexual people are 2/3s human :rolleyes:.

I definitely don't agree w/ Obama on the abortions thing 'cause I'm against it 100%, raped or not. I'd still go with Obama anyways because McCain is too similar to Bush and he's a sneaky and conniving hypocritical snake.

[gowanstl24]

I always stand, but I haven't put my hand over my heart since I was forced to in school. I just don't see the point of it. People only do that because people see other people doing it and don't want to be frowned upon for not doing it.

That is so lame. If you want to, fine. If you don't, fine. If you sit, fine, pick your nose, fine. I don't see how this matters in the big picture of life.

**edited:
My point was...putting your hand over your heart doesn't make you a good American. Being a good, honest person, not getting into legal trouble, not being a bigot or racist, paying your taxes and helping people out once in a while makes you a good American. Those are real gestures.

[Smurfwicked]

I'll agree those videos are greatly bias one with a bunch of ignorant commentary, I simply selected the code of the first video that I came across that showed the each issue at hand.

I would never vote for McCain, esp since he's against gay marriages. I particularly do not agree with the lifestyle since I believe God made two genders for a reason but being different from me doesn't make you any less human. I bet soon enough they're gonna say homosexual people are 2/3s human :rolleyes:.

I definitely don't agree w/ Obama on the abortions thing 'cause I'm against it 100%, raped or not. I'd still go with Obama anyways because McCain is too similar to Bush and he's a sneaky and conniving hypocritical snake.

Do you think brother & sisters, father & daughters, and mothers & sons should be able to get married too? What is the difference? Same morals in society that has said homosexuality is wrong is the same as those that says incest is too! I'm the probably the biggest fan of lesbians, the none butch kind at least. But IMHO allowing gay marriages just makes those who wish to have incest decriminalized that much closer to achieving that.

I'm an Obama supporter 100%.

I don't get how being raised a certain way has anything to do with someone's opinion as an adult. I was raised in a family that was Christian/Republican, but I grew up to be a free-thinker, not out of spite or anything, it just happened. For years I was straining to believe in ways that didn't make sense to me and one day in my late teens/early 20s, I just got tired of believing in what other people said I should believe in. I know some people are afraid of change, or some are just limited thinkers, so if they are raised as, say, bigots, many grow up with that same Neanderthal viewpoint.

Maybe not in your case, but 9 times out of 10 if you are raised catholic/jewish/islamic you're going to go thru life reflecting that religion and the views of that religion and same goes with having respect for American tradition.

Its sad to me that there is people of very diverse religions/ethnic groups that has more respect such American traditions and are more supportive of our Independence than some Americans.

Just remember somebody somewhere out in there Bum Funked Egypt would love to have such persons citizenship into America and would appreciate it that much more than some of those here born blessed with it!

[Andrew2]

You mention one of his offices having a "Che Guevara" flag like it's a bad thing lol.

[Smurfwicked]

You mention one of his offices having a "Che Guevara" flag like it's a bad thing lol.

Are you serious or do you really not know who he is?

I thought most of who once wore T-shirts with his face on it knew this by now I guess not. But Che Guevara was an international terrorist and mass murderer do some research.

[feebee]

if he was white this thread would never exist. so what big deal. i dont put my right hand over my heart either. i just graduated from h.s it gets tiring, my arm gets cramps. i love my country i dont need to prove it to no one. some ppl need to find a new hobby. i mean who sits and try to find little flaws?

"oh he has bubble gum on his shoe...he shouldnt be president".....wth ever

everybody criticizes him because hes black. nobody sees him for his intelligence.

so this thread is ditto.:censored:

[Andrew2]

Are you serious or do you really not know who he is?

I thought most of who once wore T-shirts with his face on it knew this by now I guess not. But Che Guevara was an international terrorist and mass murderer do some research.

That's not a very nice thing to say, Obviously he killed people but here this passage from Wiki sums it up nicely.

Forty years after his execution, Che's life and deeds still remain a contentious issue.

Some view Che Guevara as a hero;[115] for example, Nelson Mandela referred to him as "an inspiration for every human being who loves freedom" while Jean-Paul Sartre described him as "not only an intellectual but also the most complete human being of our age."[116] Guevara remains a beloved national hero to many in Cuba, where his image adorns the 3 $ Cuban Peso and school children begin each morning by pledging "We will be like Che."[117] In his native homeland of Argentina, where high schools bear his name,[118] numerous Che museums dot the country, which in 2008 unveiled a 12 foot bronze statue of him in his birth city of Rosario.[119] Additionally, Guevara has been sanctified by some Bolivian campesinos as "Saint Ernesto", to whom they pray for assistance.[120]

Conversely, others view him as a spokesman for a failed ideology and as a ruthless executioner. Johann Hari, for example, writes that "Che Guevara is not a free-floating icon of rebellion. He was an actual person who supported an actual system of tyranny."[121] Detractors have also theorized that in much of Latin America, Che-inspired revolutions had the practical result of reinforcing brutal militarism for many years.[122] He also remains a hated figure amongst many in the Cuban exile community, who view him with animosity as "the butcher of La Cabaña."[123]

Moreover, Guevara has ironically been subsumed by the capitalist consumer culture he despised. The primary variable of this phenomenon has been a monochrome graphic of his face, which has become one of the World's most universally merchandized images,[124] found on an endless array of items including: t-shirts, hats, posters, tattoos, and even bikinis.[125] Yet, Guevara also remains an iconic figure both in specifically political contexts[126] and as a wide-ranging popular icon of youthful rebellion.[127]

[rize]

I would never vote for McCain, esp since he's against gay marriages. I particularly do not agree with the lifestyle since I believe God made two genders for a reason but being different from me doesn't make you any less human. I bet soon enough they're gonna say homosexual people are 2/3s human :rolleyes:.

ahh.. just because everyone does it doesn't mean it's fine in God's eyes. God made only two genders.

I'm not mad at gays.. it's just not right.. wakie wakie people :sailor:

and.. i don't put my hand on my chest during our national anthem.. I don't see the point..

[minnseoelite]

ehh, its all dirty politics. I'm sure is someone wanted to they could make a thread just like this about McCain. Just cause you won't wear some gay flag pin or put your hand over your heart don't mean a thing really. I wouldn't wear one of those pins, I don't put my hand over my heart. Does it have any hidden meaning....No it don't just my choice, my uncle, grandfather, and great grandfather was in the armed forces and fought overseas and I support our troops 100% and our country.

Those two things you mentioned are just the media trying to make a mountain out of a mole hill and surprisingly some people fall for such bs.

[Mimi]

I'll agree those videos are greatly bias one with a bunch of ignorant commentary, I simply selected the code of the first video that I came across that showed the each issue at hand.



Do you think brother & sisters, father & daughters, and mothers & sons should be able to get married too? What is the difference? Same morals in society that has said homosexuality is wrong is the same as those that says incest is too! I'm the probably the biggest fan of lesbians, the none butch kind at least. But IMHO allowing gay marriages just makes those who wish to have incest decriminalized that much closer to achieving that.


No, I do not. I don't really see how that has to deal with homosexuality but w/e. Homosexuality and incest doesn't go hand in hand.

ahh.. just because everyone does it doesn't mean it's fine in God's eyes. God made only two genders.

I'm not mad at gays.. it's just not right.. wakie wakie people :sailor:

and.. i don't put my hand on my chest during our national anthem.. I don't see the point..

What? Everyone's not doing it, I just don't really think it's fair to discriminate against them. I don't agree with the lifestyle as I said because I know God made two genders for a reason, but I just can't see myself treating people unfairly because of their sexual orientation. I think about slavery and how my people were unjustly treated (hell, we even still are today) and I cannot condone people treating people unjust because we're not the same. I was astonished to hear about how in Jamaica, people are stoned if they're found to be gay... It's just crazy imo.

What would you do if you have a child and he/she ends up becoming gay?

[Sara]

Obama being black has nothing to do with why a thread like this was posted. Every election there will always be threads started about the candidates.

I myself do not put my hand over my heart during the anthem or pledge. I will not pledge my allegiance to anyone. That is my right as an american.

As far as wiki goes well, everyone knows that wiki is always 100% acurate...

[urheart]

Dude, did she compare homosexuality to incest?

They don't go hand in hand, but I see where she is coming from. She is saying that according to the Bible, both of these things are sins, so they're the same. However, keep in mind that if it is a sin, all sins are the same in God's eyes according to the Bible.

So you pointing the finger and saying that homosexuality is wrong, makes you a huge hypocrite because everybody sins. Average humans have a scale of what action is more worse than the next, but if you're going by the standard Bible, you would know that God doesn't have a scale because all sins can be equally forgiven. So if you're going to compare homosexuality with incest, compare incest with you making this thread that's bashing Obama.

It drives me crazy when people, who believe in the Bible, have the audacity single out gays when their own image isn't squeaky clean.

Then, you have the nerve to talk about Che Guevara being a terrorist, when Bush has blood of the innocent on his hands too. So if you're going to point out the faults about people, do it for both sides.

[TaintedPearls]

I am so tired of people mentioning the national anthem thing. Not putting your hand over your heart doesn't make you any less American. I don't do it... period, but I do stand out of respect.

The video about Michelle Obama, I could really careless. It's so funny how people over exaggerate things. ORLY? This means that she wanted to have the American flag burned? She said she wasn't proud, she didn't say she hated the country or anything similar :no:.

The video about Barack Obama & sex education, I have no comment seeing as though the video is biased and didn't play it in it's entirety.

Same thing with the last video. They cut it off purposely so I can't even comment on it.

I would never vote for McCain, esp since he's against gay marriages. I particularly do not agree with the lifestyle since I believe God made two genders for a reason but being different from me doesn't make you any less human. I bet soon enough they're gonna say homosexual people are 2/3s human :rolleyes:.

I definitely don't agree w/ Obama on the abortions thing 'cause I'm against it 100%, raped or not. I'd still go with Obama anyways because McCain is too similar to Bush and he's a sneaky and conniving hypocritical snake.

I agree with this and gowanstl.

[Kasami2k4]

Hum. I guess my dream was right then.

[Kasami2k4]

if he was white this thread would never exist. so what big deal. i dont put my right hand over my heart either. i just graduated from h.s it gets tiring, my arm gets cramps. i love my country i dont need to prove it to no one. some ppl need to find a new hobby. i mean who sits and try to find little flaws?

"oh he has bubble gum on his shoe...he shouldnt be president".....wth ever

everybody criticizes him because hes black. nobody sees him for his intelligence.

so this thread is ditto.:censored:



You're an idiot.

[Smurfwicked]

This did not have anything to do with the color of Obama's skin! I was hoping McCain would pick Condi Rice as a VP to be honest. Maybe I did take it too far, I needed to vent about something today to relieve the stress of the Major Hurricane about to kick down my front door! If I had more time I would of argued and made my points in a very different way.

[gowanstl24]

Just remember somebody somewhere out in there Bum Funked Egypt would love to have such persons citizenship into America and would appreciate it that much more than some of those here born blessed with it!

Yup - it's easy to forget that, huh.

[gowanstl24]

my arm gets cramps.

ROFL
heehee

[gowanstl24]

I think the Bible can be the cause for a lot of archaic intolerance. Most homosexuals are good people, just like most straight people are good. They are just trying to live their lives like we are. Bad apples can show up anywhere. Not being able to choose who you love doesn't make you a bad person.

Incest is a totally different story. That is one, more powerful family member taking advantage of a son, daughter, or sibling. That is abuse and I don't need a Bible to tell me that it's wrong. If you have kids, you understand.

That's kind of like saying a kid will become a homosexual if his parents are gay. IMO that's just as bad as comparing homosexuality to incest because those are all assumptions produced from ignorance. Imagine a kid who was bouncing from foster home to foster home, and was eventually adopted by a homosexual couple that wanted a child to love and protect. So many right-wing people would be against that, just because of their own fears, assumptions and ignorance, or because the Bible told them so.

Gawd there is so much intolerance and it keeps us from having a more peaceful world.

[Kasami2k4]

I think the Bible can be the cause for a lot of archaic intolerance. Most homosexuals are good people, just like most straight people are good. They are just trying to live their lives like we are. Bad apples can show up anywhere. Not being able to choose who you love doesn't make you a bad person.

Incest is a totally different story. That is one, more powerful family member taking advantage of a son, daughter, or sibling. That is abuse and I don't need a Bible to tell me that it's wrong. If you have kids, you understand.

That's kind of like saying a kid will become a homosexual if his parents are gay. IMO that's just as bad as comparing homosexuality to incest because those are all assumptions produced from ignorance. Imagine a kid who was bouncing from foster home to foster home, and was eventually adopted by a homosexual couple that wanted a child to love and protect. So many right-wing people would be against that, just because of their own fears, assumptions and ignorance, or because the Bible told them so.

Gawd there is so much intolerance and it keeps us from having a more peaceful world.


Very well put, and I completely agree with everything. I do think parents have a role in how their kids turn out however. But not their sexuality. You are what you are.Look up Jeffery Daumer and read about what a freak his mom was. :2guns:

Then again, maybe insanity ran in the family, and men are much better at being sociopaths than women are.

...Thats why I wanted Hilary dammit. I don't give a **** about the economy as long as the people are alive and happy. It breaks my heart hearing about the rising death toll because somebody got greedy and nobody is brave enough to stand up to them.

[Smurfwicked]

I honestly don't care what religion a person is long. I have a problem with people that believe in no god. I think religion no matter what religion it is, is good for society! I honestly don't know why no believers in a supreme being get out of bed in the morning. Funny thing is I knew some people who didn't believe in god until they went to Iraq and had bullets flying past their heads, and I'll be darned if they didn't start praying to somebody even if it was the stars in the sky. LOL!

I have no problem with gay people either, its just them getting married or having kids that I have problems with. Besides that, I'm straight and I'm not sure I want to ever get married! I never got married the first time but I got divorce :s

[famazingspacedotcom]

http://uspolitics.america.gov/uspolitics/elections/issues.html

People should read up on the issues before jumping into voting for someone.
:whistling:
War in Iraq- They need to send our guy/girls home. Period.
Gay Marriages- This is America... The Land of The Free, am I right? Then shouldn't everyone have to right to marriage? Gay or Straight
Abortions- Again... this is America. An adult woman should have the choice to abort within the first trimester. I personaly would never do it. I also believe that an under-age girl should be able too, only if she has a parent's/legal guardian's consent, or if she was raped... as long as the rape was reported to the police.

No need to argue with me.. this is what I think and no amount of arguing is going to make me change it :rolleyes:

[TFB_princess]

Obama, Obama, Obama, Obama, Obama, Obama, Obama, Obama, Obama, Obama, Obama, :beta1:

[Matt]

if he was white this thread would never exist. so what big deal. i dont put my right hand over my heart either. i just graduated from h.s it gets tiring, my arm gets cramps. i love my country i dont need to prove it to no one. some ppl need to find a new hobby. i mean who sits and try to find little flaws?

"oh he has bubble gum on his shoe...he shouldnt be president".....wth ever

everybody criticizes him because hes black. nobody sees him for his intelligence.

so this thread is ditto.:censored:

uh - I agree with tiff, you are an idiot.

ahh.. just because everyone does it doesn't mean it's fine in God's eyes. God made only two genders.

I'm not mad at gays.. it's just not right.. wakie wakie people :sailor:

Being gay isn't a choice, so you need to stop thinking it is.

[gowanstl24]

I honestly don't care what religion a person is long. I have a problem with people that believe in no god. I think religion no matter what religion it is, is good for society!

I definitely don't have a problem with theists but I think religion can be bad for society. While it gives some people hope, comfort, and peace, it separates others, instills needless fear, and is a basis for war. That's a personal problem though...not one necessarily devised from religion. Just like guns don't kill people, people kill people, and religion doesn't kill people, etc.

Just like you don't understand how I can get out of bed every morning, I don't understand why people choose to believe in, and choose to spend so much of their day worshiping something they have never personally seen, and have only read about....not that it's a bad thing, but I just don't get it. I'm sure like you, I don't dwell on that question, but I feel the same way you do, only in reverse. I totally respect people who believe in a religion though, just like I would want others to respect my decision to be atheist. It shouldn't have an impact on their lives.

One day at our local college, an admissions lady pretty much asked me the same thing you mentioned. She was talking to me and my husband about her church and how we would love it there. My husband and I kind of smiled at each other awkwardly and she added, "...that is unless you're agnostic or atheist...."

When I told her I was, she was shocked and said she was surprised because I was so nice. I said, we are regular people. We don't like eat our kids or anything...see? They are right over there (and on cue my kids waved lol even though they were like, "huh?") and we all laughed. She said she had never met an Atheist before and then said (in a very nice tone), "I can't imagine not having anything to believe in, or to look forward to after you die," and I replied with something like, "Huh, you know, that's just never been an issue with me. I've never needed to believe in anything."

And it's true. I guess I was born without salvation anxiety. I remember being bussed off to Catholic school on Tuesday afternoons in elementary school and feeling like I was being fed a bunch of passed-down BS, and was being taught to act like good kids out of fear for going to hell, and not for the sake of being a decent human being. Today, my questions have to do with what's beyond the universe, quantum physics, other dimensions (like string theory, M theory), and whatnot. I find that knowledge tangible and fascinating.

When I get out of bed, I just think about being a good mom, being nice to others, how happy I am to see my family, and what I'm going to learn or experience that day. I plan on bettering myself a little each day, even if I don't wind up doing so - just like most people I'm sure! I don't feel like anything is missing in my life every morning, and when things go wrong, I look into myself instead of praying for a change. All of this just makes sense to me, just like prayer and belief makes sense to others.

My girls choose to believe in Christianity (prob because of the public school holidays) and have lots of questions, which I answer for them, or my husband answers for them. We also let them know about what we don't believe in, and what other religions believe in so they aren't left with one impression. My older daughter is like an agnostic Christian and came up with the logic on her own. One day she said, I think no one can prove that God exists but I choose to believe in all of that because I want to believe that something happens when we die, because I will miss you when you die. I was proud of her for making that choice on her own. It sounded good to me!

I love that they can choose to believe in any religion they want or not without feeling pulled or pressured. They will be at peace with whatever decision they make.

Sometimes though, I wonder if theists are truly as at peace as atheists are...

[barcodeunit]

obama is a terrorist and he's going to ruin this country. Every single point that Smurfwicked posted is 100% true and his arguments are 100% correct.

[barcodeunit]

put 2 BBQ ribs on a plates, ones looks and seems better then the other
so your going to pick one?

but if there was a juicy $60 prime rib on the plate (a REAL choice)

?

you say potato, i say tomato.

[feebee]

once again i think this is racist. i dont care who thinks im an idiot. yall need to get over it.

[Andrew2]

Well Obama is partially black and we all know how horrible blacks are.

Okay now compare that statement to the original post and tell me what part of the OP is racist? The fact that Smurfwicked is just sharing his opinion on the opposing nominee? So basically for anyone who didn't like Hillary Clinton they were being sexist, Correct?

You do realize John McCain is running for the republican side and Obama for the democratic side and republicans are going to criticize the democrats whether they're black, gay, transgender, part whale, from mars, asian, a former nazi or even another boring old white vietnam veteran. So.. I don't want to say you're an idiot but your common sense appears to have vanished and you have earned zero cookie points.

[cdog]

obama is a terrorist and he's going to ruin this country. Every single point that Smurfwicked posted is 100% true and his arguments are 100% correct.

dunno bout terrorist, but yeah. true stories.

no obama please

once again i think this is racist. i dont care who thinks im an idiot. yall need to get over it.

you really are an idiot

it's people like you that turn non racial things into them, and cause a problem out of nothing.

[msbooya]

Pretty much most if not all the claims in the OP have been debunked months ago, and thus warrant no further response.

[msbooya]

FFS Obama can and does put his hand over his heart. He happened not to at one point. Jesus crhist.

As for the "lapel pin" I've seen pictures of all the candidates when they didn't wear one... I'm sorry, but anyone who focuses on crap like that when I'm sure all candidates have done (or not done) it at one point or another, is an idiot.

[urheart]

Obama, Obama, Obama, Obama, Obama, Obama, Obama, Obama, Obama, Obama, Obama, :beta1:

Lol............

[ajarchibald3]

The Bush administration has been one of the worst in our country's history and for McCain to agree 90% of the time is depressing. As someone who has voted both democrat and republican, It sucks that McCain emerged as the pick. He's not someone with true republican values and the pick of Palin just shows poor judgement. She'll be great 4-8 yrs from now, but she is in no way ready to be a heartbeat away from the presidency. Plus McCain has a history of being adulterous (http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-divorce11-2008jul11,0,6546861.story) and after the clinton debacle do we really need that kind of powderkeg in the oval office. The republican party got it wrong with this ticket. The only way i'd have voted for McCain is if Hillary was the nominee.

[ladyborg]

Things like this (the OP) are probably not what either campaign wants to be about. I do not dislike Obama - but I will probably vote for McCain. I really am not concerned with the petty things in these videos. What I am concerned about is Obama coming from the Chicago political machine - and the fact that his outlines of policy continue to be ambigious. It seems like he's trying to "sneak in".

However, I really don't think there are major character issues with either candidate - so people have been scraping the bottom of the barrel for some. It really has been a long time, probably since the Reagan/Mondale elections, since the election has been totally about the issues, and not about some personal character flaw of one candidate or the other. Many young voters are too young to remember those days. I find it refreshing.

I think saying that saying Bush is McCain is unfair. Ronald Reagan and Richard Nixon were both republicans - both brilliant men - but it is easy to see through history that Reagan was an honorable president and Nixon was imfamous. I think History will show that Bush was someone who got the power and it corrupted him. He abused his power to send troops. He worked up the evidence of WMD to get his war. These are things that were not part of any political platform - and pinning that on McCain is a stretch.

[Ryan]

I have no problem with gay people either, its just them getting married or having kids that I have problems with. Besides that, I'm straight and I'm not sure I want to ever get married! I never got married the first time but I got divorce

Did you seriously just say you dont have a problem with gay people? OBVIOUSLY you do. Hypocrit. I am a sixteen year old GAY male. How dare you say me wanting to get married to someone I love in the future is wrong..
You and those anti-homosexual thoughts and mindsets are the exact reason this country is so messed up. The ONLY way we are different than you is that we happen to love the same gender. BIG DEAL. We arent all rapists, we dont all have HIV/AIDS. We are normal people who deserve the same rights and treatment as heterosexuals. I promise you, when I am 18, I will do everything in my power to change the thoughts on homosexuals in this clusterf*ck of a so-called society. And lets just see, If one of your kids happens to turn out Bi-Sexual, Lesbian, Gay or Transgendered, how your opinions change then. Until then, enjoy living a hypocritical and very hateful life.

[/done]

Obama FTW.

[feebee]

FFS Obama can and does put his hand over his heart. He happened not to at one point. Jesus crhist.

As for the "lapel pin" I've seen pictures of all the candidates when they didn't wear one... I'm sorry, but anyone who focuses on crap like that when I'm sure all candidates have done (or not done) it at one point or another, is an idiot.

i agree. as far as im concerned bush is a terrorist

[feebee]

dunno bout terrorist, but yeah. true stories.

no obama please



you really are an idiot

it's people like you that turn non racial things into them, and cause a problem out of nothing.
whatever dude. like i said if obama wasnt black you ppl be calling him a terrorist. as far as im concerned you guys are idiots.

lets get a 10 things we should know about mc cain thread.

im black and every time some one of minority tries to do something great everyone else wants to climb down there back.

and then you guys critisize homosexuals you ppl are sick

America is a free country. everyone deserves chance and oppurtunity.
obama doesn't deserve opportunity? why because hes minority.

and then i feel ppl are entitle to their own damn preference. who are you guys to criticize. i have plenty of gay friends

well ill guess ill be the idiot. but you guys need to check yourself. no body is better than the next

and true intelligence comes in no color shape or preference

[Ryan]

whatever dude. like i said if obama wasnt black you ppl be calling him a terrorist. as far as im concerned you guys are idiots.

lets get a 10 things we should know about mc cain thread.

im black and every time some one of minority tries to do something great everyone else wants to climb down there back.

and then you guys critisize homosexuals you ppl are sick

America is a free country. everyone deserves chance and oppurtunity.
obama doesn't deserve opportunity? why because hes minority.

and then i feel ppl are entitle to their own damn preference. who are you guys to criticize. i have plenty of gay friends

well ill guess ill be the idiot. but you guys need to check yourself. no body is better than the next

and true intelligence comes in no color shape or preference

hi, your my new best friend.

[erkstuh]

America is a free country. everyone deserves chance and oppurtunity.
obama doesn't deserve opportunity? why because hes minority.


Who said Obama doesn't deserve an opportunity? He has his opportunity. Most likely, he will be the next President. I think thats a BIG opportunity.

Also, you said, "Why, because he's minority?" No one ever said anything about his race. They are saying why they don't like him, or what they don't like about him, and you keep relating it back to his color. Were, or at least I, am not racist, but from what I DO know, I don't like him.

[feebee]

Who said Obama doesn't deserve an opportunity? He has his opportunity. Most likely, he will be the next President. I think thats a BIG opportunity.

Also, you said, "Why, because he's minority?" No one ever said anything about his race. They are saying why they don't like him, or what they don't like about him, and you keep relating it back to his color. Were, or at least I, am not racist, but from what I DO know, I don't like him.

and i respect your opinion. but in most cases ppl dont like him because of his race and they are in denial.

not saying you. but other people.

[erkstuh]

Yeah. I do agree with that too. I just dont see it in these situations though. :]

[gowanstl24]

Dude, did she compare homosexuality to incest?

She who? Smurfwicked did in his first post. I was just disagreeing with him, if you were talking about my post.

[urheart]

She who? Smurfwicked did in his first post. I was just disagreeing with him, if you were talking about my post.

I meant Smurfwicked's post. Sorry about the confusion.

[Andrew2]

The thing about what Smurfwicked said comparing homosexuality to incest I kind of agree with. In today's society Incest is looked at as a gawdy, disgusting, possibly mental issue when back in the Renessescane days it was a common practice (not saying everyone was doing it but some did it, just read a book from Anglo Saxon time periods and later). You have to figure in the culture we live in things will always change and 300 years from now Pedophilia could be common for all we know, It already is in some cultures. Anyways my point is, And possibly Smurf's point is that generally those two things that people don't believe is "morally right".

There are no rules written for human behavior, You can't control everyone or discourage anyone for what they believe or do what seems absurd these days could very well be advertised in the future (if societies change). We all have our personal opinions about things and as we grow older we develope minds of our own but in many cases if you grow up with it around you, you begin to accept and tolerate it sometimes and from there it grows in families (whatever IT may be) and also people might find it later in life and continue from there. (like Homosexuality, Polygamy, Incest, Pedophila etc.)

I don't mean to offend anyone by putting Homosexuality with Pedophila or Incest but they are all sexual preferences or beliefs that are often frowned on by the majority.

This is why there will never be world peace or complete tolerance because beliefs turn into laws and laws cause frustration and anarchy, You can't put a lid on human behavior because we're all different.

Please don't disagree with me, because I'm not stating a concrete opinion about anything just the facts of how societies work. I myself have strong opinions on some of these matters, I don't care for any of the lifestyle choices but I won't argue with it if someone decides that's what they want to do and they find someone else who is willing to pull through with them.

My opinion on this sexual stuff is to just not have sex, You will have a better life with less complications!

I like McCain, I like Obama. Okay not really, But I am voting for Obama because he's black. Kay? Thanks!

[adam]

Did you seriously just say you dont have a problem with gay people? OBVIOUSLY you do. Hypocrit. I am a sixteen year old GAY male. How dare you say me wanting to get married to someone I love in the future is wrong..
You and those anti-homosexual thoughts and mindsets are the exact reason this country is so messed up. The ONLY way we are different than you is that we happen to love the same gender. BIG DEAL. We arent all rapists, we dont all have HIV/AIDS. We are normal people who deserve the same rights and treatment as heterosexuals. I promise you, when I am 18, I will do everything in my power to change the thoughts on homosexuals in this clusterf*ck of a so-called society. And lets just see, If one of your kids happens to turn out Bi-Sexual, Lesbian, Gay or Transgendered, how your opinions change then. Until then, enjoy living a hypocritical and very hateful life.

[/done]

Obama FTW.

your awesome ryan. i love you for posting that. :yes:

/hugs you

[Mimi]

The thing about what Smurfwicked said comparing homosexuality to incest I kind of agree with. In today's society Incest is looked at as a gawdy, disgusting, possibly mental issue when back in the Renessescane days it was a common practice (not saying everyone was doing it but some did it, just read a book from Anglo Saxon time periods and later). You have to figure in the culture we live in things will always change and 300 years from now Pedophilia could be common for all we know, It already is in some cultures. Anyways my point is, And possibly Smurf's point is that generally those two things that people don't believe is "morally right".

There are no rules written for human behavior, You can't control everyone or discourage anyone for what they believe or do what seems absurd these days could very well be advertised in the future (if societies change). We all have our personal opinions about things and as we grow older we develope minds of our own but in many cases if you grow up with it around you, you begin to accept and tolerate it sometimes and from there it grows in families (whatever IT may be) and also people might find it later in life and continue from there. (like Homosexuality, Polygamy, Incest, Pedophila etc.)

I don't mean to offend anyone by putting Homosexuality with Pedophila or Incest but they are all sexual preferences or beliefs that are often frowned on by the majority.

This is why there will never be world peace or complete tolerance because beliefs turn into laws and laws cause frustration and anarchy, You can't put a lid on human behavior because we're all different.

Please don't disagree with me, because I'm not stating a concrete opinion about anything just the facts of how societies work. I myself have strong opinions on some of these matters, I don't care for any of the lifestyle choices but I won't argue with it if someone decides that's what they want to do and they find someone else who is willing to pull through with them.

My opinion on this sexual stuff is to just not have sex, You will have a better life with less complications!

I like McCain, I like Obama. Okay not really, But I am voting for Obama because he's black. Kay? Thanks!

You can't compare homosexuality to incest...
Incest is sexual abuse.

[Andrew2]

I wasn't comparing them I was put them in a list of sexual lifestyles that people don't necessarily agree with. Prostitution would also be on the list, The whole point of being gay is that you've become sexually attracted or romantically involved with someone who's the same sex. Homosexuality is a sexual identity and belongs with all the other sexual activities otherwise it wouldn't be fair to gays to say their orientation doesn't matter since many of them are proud and are strong rights activists. But like I said I don't even have a concrete opinion about them myself. To me being gay isn't wrong, And I think incest is wrong but to someone else in another part of our globe they thing the complete opposite does that mean they're wrong? No, because that mean's I'm wrong according to them as well and who wants to be wrong? It's all about tolerance and acceptance and as long as we all have opinions about these things we have left no room for tolerance.

[Kasami2k4]

lol @ america a free country


My dad installed taps on all of your phone lines btw :(

[adam]

My dad installed taps on all of your phone lines btw :(

:eek:
space

[Kasami2k4]

Yeah, his phone company was ordered to.
Anyway http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode36/usc_sec_36_00000301----000-.html

[msbooya]

You can't compare homosexuality to incest...
Incest is sexual abuse.

Unless the relatives are above the age of consent, then it's just gross (and potentially dangerous for any offspring created)

[feebee]

I like McCain, I like Obama. Okay not really, But I am voting for Obama because he's black. Kay? Thanks!


ummm... :dots:

[Ryan]

im guessing that was some of andrews world class sarcasm?

[rufus]

whatever dude. like i said if obama wasnt black you ppl be calling him a terrorist. as far as im concerned you guys are idiots.

lets get a 10 things we should know about mc cain thread.

im black and every time some one of minority tries to do something great everyone else wants to climb down there back.

and then you guys critisize homosexuals you ppl are sick

America is a free country. everyone deserves chance and oppurtunity.
obama doesn't deserve opportunity? why because hes minority.

and then i feel ppl are entitle to their own damn preference. who are you guys to criticize. i have plenty of gay friends

well ill guess ill be the idiot. but you guys need to check yourself. no body is better than the next

and true intelligence comes in no color shape or preference

You yourself are a racist....Look at what you have said in all your posts here. Just cause someone doesnt like someone doesnt mean they are a racist. Just because he happens to be black has ZERO to do with this thread. You brought it in here.

Kerry is White....I didnt like him or what he stood for and the way he conducted himself in the Senate.

Since I or others dont like Hussain Obama for the same reasons doesnt make us racist.

As long as you yourself keep throwing the race card in everything you do in life YOU are your own worse enemy and you dont even know it. That is Sad.

I dont care if Obama is white/black/purple or orange he wouldnt ever get my vote.

And for the person that called the American pin Gay.....You honestly have issues and I and MANY other Americans would never say such a thing.

Whats really funny is 99% of you have never seen anything but what you see on TV. You havent been to Iraq. You have never been to a communist country. You have never seen death by the hands of terrorist 1st hand. You sit in your seat at home and watch the news and complain cause the cost of Gas has gone up.

You know what your told and what you read but have no real idea of what things are about. You sit back and ride on the curt tails of those that serve the country and die for the country and then make your decision on if you wanna put your hand across your heart or wear that Flag pin. You whine cause your arm cramps...OMG Please...Im sure the guy that died so you could do so would trade places with you and just take the cramp.

Another sad note is that alot of the men and woman that have fought for you to be able to do those things would be disgusted with alot of what you people have said here. Im sure your parents are proud of you and the words you have spoken. It makes me gag.

You think this country is bad now ?? Just wait till your generation gets in office cause Im hope Im dead by then.

[spotlight-shure]

Politics.
Poly.
Ticks.
Many bloodsucking leeches.

[Kasami2k4]

You yourself are a racist....Look at what you have said in all your posts here. Just cause someone doesnt like someone doesnt mean they are a racist. Just because he happens to be black has ZERO to do with this thread. You brought it in here.

Kerry is White....I didnt like him or what he stood for and the way he conducted himself in the Senate.

Since I or others dont like Hussain Obama for the same reasons doesnt make us racist.

As long as you yourself keep throwing the race card in everything you do in life YOU are your own worse enemy and you dont even know it. That is Sad.

I dont care if Obama is white/black/purple or orange he wouldnt ever get my vote.

And for the person that called the American pin Gay.....You honestly have issues and I and MANY other Americans would never say such a thing.

Whats really funny is 99% of you have never seen anything but what you see on TV. You havent been to Iraq. You have never been to a communist country. You have never seen death by the hands of terrorist 1st hand. You sit in your seat at home and watch the news and complain cause the cost of Gas has gone up.

You know what your told and what you read but have no real idea of what things are about. You sit back and ride on the curt tails of those that serve the country and die for the country and then make your decision on if you wanna put your hand across your heart or wear that Flag pin. You whine cause your arm cramps...OMG Please...Im sure the guy that died so you could do so would trade places with you and just take the cramp.

Another sad note is that alot of the men and woman that have fought for you to be able to do those things would be disgusted with alot of what you people have said here. Im sure your parents are proud of you and the words you have spoken. It makes me gag.

You think this country is bad now ?? Just wait till your generation gets in office cause Im hope Im dead by then.

This guy is my new hero. :rockon::punk:

Obama isnt even black. Hes mixed. Classifying him as one or the other is retarded.

[rufus]

This guy is my new hero. :rockon::punk:

Obama isnt even black. Hes mixed. Classifying him as one or the other is retarded.

Oh yeah I forgot that part..................He isnt Black or White he is both. Why is it this guy/girl discarded that part of him is beyond me ??

I like him and he is a Great speaker but the way he has done things in the Senate is something I disagree with. He has some good plans just as McCain does and I would hope that whoever the next Prez is would take some from each other and use them.

Many here disagree with the War and having troops there but ya know regardless of how they got there they are there and ya gotta support them while they are there. Its done and we cant just pack up and leave. The job there has to be completed cause if it isnt things will be far far worse then what you can even imagine. Saying Just Leave is easy but the consequence of doing so would a major mistake and if you dont know why then guess what ? You have no clue about Iraq.

Do I like where the country is right at this moment ? Not really but you cant just say George Bush George Bush. That in itself is crazy and again only shows you have no clue what you are speaking of. There are alot of factors that can explain why this country is in the state its in now.

Bad decisions on the parts of Rep and Dems played a role as to where we are and to fault one man is ignorant to say the least. I persoanally looked at voting for Obama but I do my homework and I study and read my *** off about who did what and when. I dont sit and watch TV on what people say here or there cause 3/4 of what is said on TV and in the paper are twisted truths.

Actually go and look at the record they have and what they have done while they served in the Senate. Look at what they voted for and when. Its all public record if ya wanna know.

If someone voted against something actually look at what they voted against and not just the headliner of said Bill. Alot of times someone will vote against a bill that only makes sense to vote for the reason that it has so much pork in it that its unreal. If you dont know what pork is its the small print on a bill of things that are added to it. Like with this Bill 10 million will also go to underwater basket weaving classes for dogs. Thats just an example of why sometimes a person will vote against a bill that the Headliner on said bill looks good but all the extra stuff that one party or the other has thrown in there causing people to vote against it. Then the same people that put the BS in the bill use it against them during an election..Alot of what Obama has said is true but alot of what he has said is a bold face lie also. He says McCain voted against this and that but doesnt tell you why he actually did either. Leading you to believe that he did something bad during hard times when in reality he didnt.

It goes both ways also.

[feebee]

Oh yeah I forgot that part..................He isnt Black or White he is both. Why is it this guy/girl discarded that part of him is beyond me ??

I like him and he is a Great speaker but the way he has done things in the Senate is something I disagree with. He has some good plans just as McCain does and I would hope that whoever the next Prez is would take some from each other and use them.

Many here disagree with the War and having troops there but ya know regardless of how they got there they are there and ya gotta support them while they are there. Its done and we cant just pack up and leave. The job there has to be completed cause if it isnt things will be far far worse then what you can even imagine. Saying Just Leave is easy but the consequence of doing so would a major mistake and if you dont know why then guess what ? You have no clue about Iraq.

Do I like where the country is right at this moment ? Not really but you cant just say George Bush George Bush. That in itself is crazy and again only shows you have no clue what you are speaking of. There are alot of factors that can explain why this country is in the state its in now.

Bad decisions on the parts of Rep and Dems played a role as to where we are and to fault one man is ignorant to say the least. I persoanally looked at voting for Obama but I do my homework and I study and read my *** off about who did what and when. I dont sit and watch TV on what people say here or there cause 3/4 of what is said on TV and in the paper are twisted truths.

Actually go and look at the record they have and what they have done while they served in the Senate. Look at what they voted for and when. Its all public record if ya wanna know.

If someone voted against something actually look at what they voted against and not just the headliner of said Bill. Alot of times someone will vote against a bill that only makes sense to vote for the reason that it has so much pork in it that its unreal. If you dont know what pork is its the small print on a bill of things that are added to it. Like with this Bill 10 million will also go to underwater basket weaving classes for dogs. Thats just an example of why sometimes a person will vote against a bill that the Headliner on said bill looks good but all the extra stuff that one party or the other has thrown in there causing people to vote against it. Then the same people that put the BS in the bill use it against them during an election..Alot of what Obama has said is true but alot of what he has said is a bold face lie also. He says McCain voted against this and that but doesnt tell you why he actually did either. Leading you to believe that he did something bad during hard times when in reality he didnt.

It goes both ways also.

anyways. i do watch tv, and my dad is in iraq. u can say whatever you like it really doesnt matter. i know who i am as an individual i have friends from all walks an preferences.and no matter what any one says nothings gonna change so screw you. and im black and japanese by the way and when people describe me its just black.. so when your mixed with black your black. i watch the news all the time and the commentators do nothing but pull the race card.

[Andrew2]

and im black and japanese by the way and when people describe me its just black..

You described yourself as black so it's not just the people around you describing yourself as black, you are too.

im black and every time some one of minority tries to do something great everyone else wants to climb down there back.

You have a very flawed way of expressing your opinion. :surrender:

[TaintedPearls]

these are just very nitpicky reasons why ppl shouldn't vote for obama. i agree with a lot of things obama believes in and that's just my choice. ppl should just vote for the person who is best fit to run the country. i don't see that in mccain so i'm voting for obama. if he were another race with the same views, i'd still vote for him.

*damn i want some mac n cheese* goodbye.

[rufus]

anyways. i do watch tv, and my dad is in iraq. u can say whatever you like it really doesnt matter. i know who i am as an individual i have friends from all walks an preferences.and no matter what any one says nothings gonna change so screw you. and im black and japanese by the way and when people describe me its just black.. so when your mixed with black your black. i watch the news all the time and the commentators do nothing but pull the race card.

Dude are you sick ?? Miss your Meds or something ? No one here has mentioned race but YOU..................................

As long as you hold onto that crutch during your life you yourself are as much as a contributor to racism then the man that wont vote for him cause he is black. Does what you say exist ? Yeah Im sure there are some that wont vote for him just for that fact but ya know what ? There are also alot of Blacks that will vote for Obama just cause he is black and not for what he stands for or has done. So what is that ?? Is that ok ? Are they racist cause of that ? Its the same thing just turned around. Are you raising hell with them cause of what they are doing ??

I hope your Dad is ok and I personally Thank him for his service that he is doing.

But really get off the race crap cause no one here has said anything about it. I mean raise hell with the people on TV if thats where you are getting your info.

It has been said why some here disagree with the man just like they disagreed with Kerry and many other Dems also.

As a side note I did like Alan Keyes when he ran but that didnt last long. Also you do know that the Dems have a Senator from WV Mr Bird who's nickname is KKK Bird right ? Yeah thats right he was a high ranking member of the KKK but still holds office after many many years.

And here read this.....

Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama accepted his party's nomination Aug. 28, speaking before more than 84,000 people in Denver's Mile High football stadium. Some of his comments were worthy of a ref's yellow flag.

Not Quite Every Dime

Obama reassured voters that he can pay for all his spending proposals:

Obama: Now, many of these plans will cost money, which is why I’ve laid out how I’ll pay for every dime – by closing corporate loopholes and tax havens that don’t help America grow.

obama_convention_speechThis is misleading. Even by his own campaign’s estimates, closing corporate loopholes and tax havens won’t pay for all of Obama’s new plans. In July, the campaign told the Los Angeles Times that they estimate the yearly cost of their proposed tax cuts at $130 billion. They put revenue from closing tax loopholes at just $80 billion. Obama also proposes to raise taxes to pre-Bush levels for families earning more than $250,000 a year and singles making more than $200,000, yielding additional revenue. But he didn't mention that in his speech.

But Obama’s claim is misleading on another level. According to the nonpartisan Tax Policy Center, "without substantial cuts in government spending" Obama’s plan – and McCain's, too – "would substantially increase the national debt over the next ten years." Obama spokesman Tommy Vietor told FactCheck.org that the Tax Policy Center's analysis "fails to take in account Senator Obama's spending cuts, including ending the Iraq war." That's true, but Obama's proposed cuts are dwarfed by the Tax Policy Center's projected deficits. Obama’s new spending programs might be completely offset by new revenue and spending cuts. But overall spending will still exceed overall revenue, and the nation would face at least 10 more years of annual deficits.

Afghan Muddle

Obama twisted McCain's words about Afghanistan, incorrectly implying that McCain saw no need for more troops there.

Obama: When John McCain said we could just “muddle through” in Afghanistan, I argued for more resources and more troops to finish the fight against the terrorists who actually attacked us on 9/11

Actually, McCain said in 2003 that the U.S. "may" muddle through, not that weobama_convention could or would. He also said he was very concerned about a rise in al Qaeda activity there. He said then that he was "guardedly optimistic" that the government could handle it.

McCain, 2003: I think Afghanistan is dicey. I think that there are certain areas of the country, particularly along the Pakistani border, that are clearly not under the control of either Pakistan or the Afghan government. ... There has been a rise in al Qaeda activity along the border. There has been some increase in U.S. casualties. I am concerned about it, but I'm not as concerned as I am about Iraq today, obviously, or I'd be talking about Afghanistan. But I believe that if Karzai can make the progress that he is making, that – in the long term, we may muddle through in Afghanistan.

So I'm guardedly optimistic, but I am also realistic that the central government in Kabul has very little effect on the policies and practices of the warlords who control the surrounding areas.

Recently, however, both candidates have called for an increased troop presence in Afghanistan. In July, Obama proposed sending two more combat brigades, drawn down from Iraq. McCain immediately followed this with a call for three more brigades, but later clarified that some of those troops would be NATO forces. A McCain spokeswoman said that the U.S. would "contribute" troops to the increase under McCain's plan.

Tax Spin

Obama said: “I will cut taxes ... for 95 percent of all working families.” And he said McCain proposes “not one penny of tax relief to more than 100 million Americans,” a claim his running mate, Joe Biden, made the night before.

obama_convention Obama is right about his plan's effect on working families. More broadly, though, the plan cuts taxes for 81.3 percent of all households in 2009, according to the Tax Policy Center. The TPC also says McCain’s tax plan would leave 65.8 million households without a cut, not 100 million.

The TPC’s calculations factor in what's in effect a hidden tax on individuals that results from taxing corporations. McCain proposes to lower the corporate income tax rate, and Obama proposes billions of dollars in increased corporate taxes in the form of “loophole closings.” Individuals wouldn’t experience those changes as an increased tax bill from the government, but both the Congressional Budget Office and TPC allocate all corporate tax to owners of capital rather than to consumers. That means rather than flowing through to consumers in the form of higher prices or lower wages, corporate tax changes would show up as higher or lower returns on investments, which typically come in the form of corporate dividends, and profits or losses from stock sales.

Only by ignoring the hidden benefit to individuals can McCain’s plan be said to produce no cut for 100 million households. According to a calculation the TPC did at FactCheck's request, 101.9 million see no benefit if the effects of a corporate reduction are set aside.

For the record, Obama aides say the indirect effect on holders of capital won't be as large as TPC says. "We dispute TPC's methodology here," says Brian Deese of the Obama campaign. He says several of the "loophole closers" that Obama is proposing won't affect corporations or are on offshore activity that will not directly filter through.

We'd also note that retirees would fare quite a bit less well than working families under Obama's tax plan: The TPC estimates that 32 percent of households with a person over age 65 would see a tax increase.

Rich Humor

Obama used a clumsy attempt at humor by McCain as evidence of his supposed insensitivity to middle-class economic realities:

Obama: Now, I don't believe that Senator McCain doesn't care what's going on in the lives of Americans; I just think he doesn’t know. Why else would he define middle-class as someone making under five million dollars a year?

obama_conventionWhat McCain actually said at the Saddleback Church forum on Aug. 16 was that he favors low taxes for all income levels. He drew a laugh, then said, "but seriously" as he struggled to make his point:

Pastor Rick Warren, Aug. 16: [G]ive me a number, give me a specific number - where do you move from middle class to rich?

McCain: I don't want to take any money from the rich – I want everybody to get rich. ... So, I think if you are just talking about income, how about $5 million?

(LAUGHTER)

But seriously, I don't think you can - I don't think seriously that - the point is that I'm trying to make here, seriously – and I'm sure that comment will be distorted – but the point is that we want to keep people's taxes low and increase revenues.

Health Care Half Truths

Obama gave only half the story when he described a feature of McCain's health care plan:

Obama: How else could he offer a health care plan that would actually tax people’s benefits...

McCain proposes to grant families up to a $5,000 tax credit to use for health benefits. The flip side of that proposal, which McCain seldom if ever mentions, is that the value of employer-sponsored benefits would also become taxable. Both candidates are trading in half-truths here; McCain talks only about the pleasurable side of his plan, while Obama's speech mentioned only the painful aspect. Neither gives a complete picture.

obama_convention
Party Hearties

Obama painted McCain as a Republican partisan who's supported the unpopular President Bush consistently:

Obama: And next week, we'll also hear about those occasions when he's broken with his party as evidence that he can deliver the change that we need. But the record's clear: John McCain has voted with George Bush 90 percent of the time.

It's true that McCain's voting support for Bush policies has averaged slightly above 89 percent since Bush took office, according to Congressional Quarterly’s vote studies. But it has ebbed and flowed. It reached a low of 77 percent in 2005. Last year it was 95 percent. By comparison, Obama's own record of supporting Bush policies has averaged slightly under 41 percent since the senator took office. However, Obama's voting record is no less partisan than McCain's. He has voted in line with his party an average of nearly 97 percent of the time. The truth is that neither candidate can claim a strong record of "breaking with his party" if Senate votes are the measure.

He Didn't Mean It

Obama also pulled some sleight of hand when he stated that "the average American family" saw its income "go down $2,000" under George Bush. That's not correct. Census figures show average family income went down $348.

As it turns out, when Obama said "average family income," he didn't mean "average," and he didn't mean "family," either. An Obama aide says he was really referring to median income – which is the midpoint – and not to the average. And Obama was talking only about "working families," not retired couples.

For all families, median family income actually inched up under Bush by $272.

– by Brooks Jackson, with Viveca Novak, Justin Bank, Jess Henig, Emi Kolawole, Joe Miller, Lori Robertson and D'Angelo Gore

Sources
Burman, Len, et. al. “An Updated Analysis of the 2008 Presidential Candidates’ Tax Plans: Revised August 15, 2008.” Tax Policy Center, 15 Aug. 2008.

Table T08-0182, Senator McCain’s Tax Proposals as Described by his Economic Advisors, Distribution of Federal Tax Change by Cash Income Percentile, 2009. Tax Policy Center, 19 July 2008.

Gleckman, Roberton Williams and Howard. "An Updated Analysis of the 2008 Presidential Candidates' Tax Plans." 28 August 2008. The Tax Policy Center. 29 August 2008

Nicholas, Peter. "Adding Up the Cost of Obama's agenda." 8 July 2008. The Los Angeles Times. 29 August 2008

CQ member Profiles: Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz). 1 Apr. 2007. Congressional Quarterly, 9 June 2008.

CQ member Profiles: Sen. Barack Obama (D-Ill). February 2008. Congressional Quarterly, 12 June 2008.

Transcript, "Saddleback Presidential Candidates Forum" CNN.com 16 Aug. 2008.

Urban-Brookings Tax Policy Center, "Table T08-0203 - Senator Obama's Tax Proposals of August 14, 2008: Economic Advisers' Version (No Payroll Surtax), Distribution of Federal Tax Change by Cash Income Percentile, 2009" 14 Aug 2008.

[rufus]

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[gowanstl24]

Whats really funny is 99% of you have never seen anything but what you see on TV. You havent been to Iraq. You have never been to a communist country. You have never seen death by the hands of terrorist 1st hand. You sit in your seat at home and watch the news and complain cause the cost of Gas has gone up.


I'm sorry but that's such a crutch. I was in the military for 8 years and my husband is still active. I was in Haiti in '95 and he has been to Korea back in the day, and Iraq recently. We would both agree that your average enlisted person who goes to Iraq or Afghanistan doesn't know much more than the person sitting on his *** in his own home. Sure, many see death. Many don't see death. Some are just hot as hell and wishing for some AC and clean underwear or at least a shower. Most have no clue what's really going on because everything above a "do-it-now" order is freakin' classified!

Just because I served my country doesn't give me any more right to voice my opinion of the war than some yuppie reading the paper at Starbucks. This is a free country, and like it or not, it's why we are all able to ***** and moan as much as we do.

Now, about the person who said the lapel pin was gay. I hate to put words into someone's mouth, but I have a feeling he meant the new symbolism behind it is gay, as far as everyone having to wear it or people assume they hate America. If that's what he meant, then I totally agree. That aspect of the pin is totally lame.

[Smurfwicked]

I'm surprised to see this thread still going. I'm not saying that I don't support any issues that Obama is for! For example, sure I'd like a tax break. But Obama taxes the hell out of those who make over 250k a year. Those are the people that create jobs for you and me! Maybe since most of work from home and use your income from your websites its no big deal. But everybody I worked for in my life has made over 250k a year, I could be wrong, I'm not an expert but it makes sense to me that the more money they keep in their pockets the more room they have to offer more jobs!

Pretty much most if not all the claims in the OP have been debunked months ago, and thus warrant no further response.

Just curious? How does his own words, past voting history, get debunked? Its so easy for you to say this has been debunked blah blah... But where is your proof of this then?

once again i think this is racist. i dont care who thinks im an idiot. yall need to get over it.

LOL, I'm far from racist. If Colin Powell or Condi Rice ran for president I just might vote for either of them! I honestly don't think anybody who has served in the Army could possibly be racist, all that wore that uniform was one color, GREEN!

Did you seriously just say you dont have a problem with gay people? OBVIOUSLY you do. Hypocrit. I am a sixteen year old GAY male. How dare you say me wanting to get married to someone I love in the future is wrong..
You and those anti-homosexual thoughts and mindsets are the exact reason this country is so messed up. The ONLY way we are different than you is that we happen to love the same gender. BIG DEAL. We arent all rapists, we dont all have HIV/AIDS. We are normal people who deserve the same rights and treatment as heterosexuals. I promise you, when I am 18, I will do everything in my power to change the thoughts on homosexuals in this clusterf*ck of a so-called society. And lets just see, If one of your kids happens to turn out Bi-Sexual, Lesbian, Gay or Transgendered, how your opinions change then. Until then, enjoy living a hypocritical and very hateful life.

[/done]

Obama FTW.

I think Andrew clarified my point quite well! All the points you've just stated is the same points that an adult who consents to incest would make. Incest is legal in some countries as long as its consenting adults. Therefor I ask again, do you think that is right too? Incest was once a common practice, especially amongst the wealthy just a few hundred years ago, before there was even a such thing known as homosexuality.

And what about animals, that woman down there in Boys Town Mexico, loves her donkey, should she be given the right to marry her donkey as well?

So basically we have a open gay person saying that you're a man that loves another man and you should be able to marry him. But you're saying that adult brothers & sisters can't marry? And yet you're calling me the hiprocrit? Before you say, its because incest is sick (which I would agree), think to yourself how many people think the same thing about homosexuality.

[gowanstl24]

LOL, I'm far from racist. If Colin Powell or Condi Rice ran for president I just might vote for either of them! I honestly don't think anybody who has served in the Army could possibly be racist, all that wore that uniform was one color, GREEN!

That kind of reminded of Ahmadinejad's, "There are no gays in Iran" speech lol.

Ya, they tried to teach us that in our bootcamp as well. That's crap. I don't care which branch you're in. There are racists, rapists, you name it. Military branches are a microcosm of America. I knew plenty of racist Marines and Navy Corpsman. Is the Army immune? It's a nice thought though...if only people could be trained to think like that and then have it stick for the life of their careers.

[gowanstl24]

Incest was once a common practice, especially amongst the wealthy just a few hundred years ago, before there was even a such thing known as homosexuality.



So, you think homosexuality was invented within the past few hundred years? Just off the top of my head, It was practiced in Japan thousands of years ago - dating back to at least the 9th century to be exact. Gawd, I learned that when I lived in Japan, do you really need me to search for a link? :/

It has been in existence since men have been on Earth.

Well, maybe one day certain seagulls saw a couple of men getting it on and decided it would be a cool thing to do, and that's why scientists have found ones who mate with a seagull of the same sex for the rest of their lives.

Seagulls: link here (http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/07/0722_040722_gayanimal.html) - from National Geographic, no less. :/

[rufus]

gowanstl24 I dont know what yours or your husbands job was or is in the military but if you didnt know anything or see anything then you must have been in a job or position where you were just blind to your surroundings. For you to go there and just be a puppet not paying attention to what is happening and what is being accomplished is really shocking. Did you just stay in the rear and give support or something ???

I would have to disagree with your aspect that your everyday military person knows nothing more then someone reading a paper at starbucks. Thats insane in my eyes.

Also no one said they didnt have a right to an opinion they can say whatever they want as far as I care but I too will voice mine and not sit back and watch all the bashing of the flag or the National Anthem etc......People take things as if they are a God given right when they are not. Alot of Blood was spilled for such things and to see people just disgard as nothing disturbs me.

[Goins]

thanks for the inof dont kno much about this stuff.
haha

http://catcat123.notlong.com

[Andrew2]

Yeah, Also Cats sometimes eat their babies.
Alligators pee in the water.
Dogs will have sex with anything.
Hyenas actually eat eachother without any problems, like it's just another meal.

According to the seagull analogy, if animals do it in the wild then humans should do it.

I don't get what that point was, and yeah everything has been around for years and years but uh you won't find many records of things from 4000bc talking about it much feel free to prove me wrong but a few hundred years ago was when a lot of major things started getting recorded, being included in stories, books, magazines etc.

My view is that there's no label as to what's wrong or right, these laws were based on opinions that a lot of people agreed on. If gays want to do their thing, then we should learn to accept "other" types of people as well even if you "believe" it's wrong.

I personally have a problem with Murder, that's a really big issue for me. So it's hard for me to say you should accept people because they murder because I think Murder is it's own category, Once someone dies they can't come back and defend themselves so there's really no excuse for killing someone. I think murderers should all be put to death.

I know this has nothing to do with Obama but I'm just contributing to the side discussion.

[Taghyra]

I honestly don't think anybody who has served in the Army could possibly be racist, all that wore that uniform was one color, GREEN!

Woa, only a white person could say that... lol

Any latino or black person could prove you wrong :rolleyes:

First time I've ever experienced racism was in the military rofl

[gowanstl24]

No, we weren't grunts, since that is what you are implying, but you don't need to be a grunt to see how horrible things are where ever you are deployed to. My husband was a comm guy (nope - not in the back) in Korea and an air traffic controller in Iraq. I was one of the first three women the Marines trained at the anti-terrorism school in VA and right after, I went to Haiti as an anti-terrorism specialist. After that I too became an air traffic controller but got out after my second tour.

Whether you are in the back or at the "tip of the spear" (gagging at that overused term) you still see what's going on around you. It's insane to think that everyone out there knows exactly what they are fighting for, and no, I don't mean our freedom. I mean in the moment, what is going on in the minds of the generals running the show. To think that we are over there just to fight for our freedom is pretty ignorant, but maybe that limited mindframe is what keeps people sane. There is nothing wrong with fighting for our freedom, don't get me wrong, but that's not the only reason we are in Iraq.

If you don't want to listen to me, My husband wrote a book about all the BS he encountered in Iraq. Here is the Amazon link (http://www.amazon.com/Life-Inside-Wire-David-Gowans/dp/1604743352/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1220465977&sr=8-1). Thankfully I married a man who gets the big picture.

[gowanstl24]

First time I've ever experienced racism was in the military rofl

Now that I think of it, same here! Pretty sad.

[gowanstl24]

My point was that homosexuality is a naturally occurring activity not limited to humans, and not something conjured up out of boredom or something in the past 300 years.

[Andrew2]

Well for some strange reason, not everyone thinks it's right still.
Just like pedophilia or incest. STRANGE.

The other day I was taking out my trash, I saw a dead spider and a living spider next to eachother. I blew the alive spider over and saw the red marks. Black widows had just mated on my trashcan.

I was relieved to then realize I was a human!

Animal to Human comparisons often don't work out, believe it or not.

[gowanstl24]

What about comparing mammal to mammal then? I'm sure I could dig some gay dolphin stories up on Nat Geo.

no...I'm not really going to do that. We are all just big bad elitist mammals with opposable thumbs. That's why in the case of discussing homosexuality and its supposed 300-year history, I thought it was relevant. I don't expect people who are against homosexuality to agree with that take tho.

:)

[Andrew2]

I'm not against it but I don't think you're capable of speaking dolphin or seagull.
My parents female dog humps my male dog, Doesn't mean a thing to me.

I'm sure someone could say it's dominatrix or some retarded crap but they're animals, Yeah we're also mammals but we're not exotic animals; we are the ones who are utlimately in charge of the world and eachother so to say we should observe and accept behavior simply because it's in "another animals nature" seems like a very primitive way of thinking.

[gowanstl24]

That's not what I meant at all.
You said, "...accept behavior simply because it's in 'another animals nature'..." I don't even think that way.

I compared homosexual activity in people with homosexuality in animals to prove a point that there is no finite time line regarding a supposed birth of homosexuality in general - not to say that made it okay in my eyes. It is primitive nature in some humans to be homosexual. It's not a choice for some.

I don't accept homosexuality because I read a scientific report somewhere years ago about homosexual animals. I accept it because I believe it is natural for some people to be born homosexual. I've had gay friends tell me they knew they were gay in Kindergarten. It doesn't get more natural than that IMO. You can't help how you feel at that age.

[Taghyra]

I compared homosexual activity in people with homosexuality in animals to prove a point that there is no finite time line regarding a supposed birth of homosexuality in general - not to say that made it okay in my eyes. It is primitive nature in some humans to be homosexual. It's not a choice for some.
I've had gay friends tell me they knew they were gay in Kindergarten. It doesn't get more natural than that IMO. You can't help how you feel at that age.

I'm sorry, but who the heck looks at another person at 5 years old, and feel they're attracted to someone... that makes no sense to me, whether you're gay or not, kids don't look at another person thinking, "Oh I like this boy/girl!". Animals don't show a sexual behavior when they're this young.

In my opinion whoever said was just looking for an excuse to explain his behavior, I started liking boys at a way older age, kids have no idea what it is to like someone at that age. Some of my gay friends, say they started liking boys around 13-14, now that makes more sense to me, because that's when people start to know what it is like to like someone else.

I have nothing against gays BTW, nothing at all. Many of my best friends are some the gayest people you could ever meet.

[Andrew2]

That's not what I meant at all.
You said, "...accept behavior simply because it's in 'another animals nature'..." I don't even think that way.

I compared homosexual activity in people with homosexuality in animals to prove a point that there is no finite time line regarding a supposed birth of homosexuality in general - not to say that made it okay in my eyes. It is primitive nature in some humans to be homosexual. It's not a choice for some.

I don't accept homosexuality because I read a scientific report somewhere years ago about homosexual animals. I accept it because I believe it is natural for some people to be born homosexual. I've had gay friends tell me they knew they were gay in Kindergarten. It doesn't get more natural than that IMO. You can't help how you feel at that age.

You keep replying to me about animal homosexuality and now your saying you were just comparing them to show me that people and animals are born gay. I'm not arguing or even talking about that at all though. I agree that people are most likely born gay but at the same time I don't care because it's not the choices they make when they're 6 years old that effects the rest of the world. It should be when they become sexually active that the arguments should be based on but even still I was replying about how animal behavior and human behavior are two very different things and just because a zebra does it doesn't mean it's natural for all mammals to do it. I'm sure we'd all like to find animals that do similar things as we do and I think that's why there's so many gay animal stories and "studies" just to have some examples to win their argument even though they have never specifically asked what the animals are feeling at the time or if the animals were "born" or "turned" gay at any point AS IF IT MATTERS THOUGH? If a seagull or dolphin is gay then they're gay, So be it.

[Kasami2k4]

My dog has humped my arm since it was 7 weeks old ._. kindergarten though eh? I didn't even like boys til I was like 11/12 years old. I love animals :( I think of them as an equal, different type of lifeform rather than lower or unequal to me. People say they're lower because they're weaker, but I could kill a ****load of people and probably get away with it because how often are murders REALLY solved ;( Come on. Then I could use the argument "They were weaker than me" eheheh

So you're Blackanese feebee ;O But youre like Martin Lawrence in that one movie where he accuses the cop of racism every 30 seconds -_-

[strawberryswirl]

After 9 pages of back-and-forths from multiple parties...nobody thought it was time to stop discussing politics on a business forum? This subforum shouldn't even be here... Ah yes, wise thinking in placing a political subforum in a business environment. I can't see that going wrong, can you? Potentially ruin your business relationships by *****ing about politics and the almighty "opinion" everyone has on MSP!

Granted, it does flare up quite a bit because someone said something ignorant or just completely stupid...but discussions like these should be left for a political forum...where everyone there will have no problem with reading/joining in on an arguement!

[gowanstl24]

I don't see how this would ruin anything. It's just a discussion about unpopular topics that some people are afraid to touch. I don't look at anyone differently in here business-wise just because I disagree with them. Like, just because I don't see eye-to-eye with Andrew doesn't make me love him or his graphics any less. If he said my mama was ugly, I'd still buy his graphics lol.

It's a matter of maturity, although I don't completely disagree with you. :)

[Ryan]

So basically we have a open gay person saying that you're a man that loves another man and you should be able to marry him. But you're saying that adult brothers & sisters can't marry? And yet you're calling me the hiprocrit? Before you say, its because incest is sick (which I would agree), think to yourself how many people think the same thing about homosexuality.

homosexuality cant be grouped with incest. they are two completely different things. i think incest is wrong..thats my opinion, but im not about to tell people who are in incestual relationships they cant do it. LOVE IS LOVE. so what the **** ever if someone loves a goat. its their right. sure it may be wrong in your eyes, but everyone has their own opinions. im not a hypocrite. why would i, a gay male, ever tell anyone they couldnt or shouldnt do something because its not normal. i wouldnt do that because, i have people come up to me DAILY telling me that i am going to hell and how i am so wrong for loving someone. why would i say that to someone else for something they do when i know how ignorant people can be. i am so done with this thread. smurf. you are a terrible person..im done dealing with ignorant ****s who cant get out of their conservative ways.

[strawberryswirl]

Tammy, from what you've seen in your time as a member of MSP... you can't honestly think that every person here is mature? Not everybody looks at political discussions the same... Some people are offended, some people take things personally...regardless of how mature or immature they may be.

I personally have no problem with discussing politics, I just don't think it should be done here...

[gowanstl24]

Tammy, from what you've seen in your time as a member of MSP... you can't honestly think that every person here is mature? Not everybody looks at political discussions the same... Some people are offended, some people take things personally...regardless of how mature or immature they may be.

I personally have no problem with discussing politics, I just don't think it should be done here...

Point well taken. :)

[Smurfwicked]

I'm not dis-agreeing with the fact that some people are born gay! And that its not a choice they've decided on somewhere in life. In fact that is part of the point I am trying to make! Just like homosexuality those that are attracted to a family member, animals, or children would claim they was born that way too! From what I know about gay people is some people didn't want to be gay when they first realized they was gay, but as you say they was born that way. And I'm sure the people that are attracted to other "taboos" feel the same way wishing they could either be more accepted into society for what they like or that they could have normal sexual feelings that isn't so bizarre to the rest of us!

My point is simple, those that like incest, animal sex and pedophiles all can make the same argument that gay people are making now. My question is simple how can you say one of those is Okay based on the same exact reasons that another one is not!

[Ryan]

learn how to speak proper english, then ask that question again..

[Smurfwicked]

learn how to speak proper english, then ask that question again..

You clearly understood the question, and have no answer for it. I was really looking forward to you answer too. I really want to know what a openly gay person thinks makes them different from a person who engages in incest, has sex with animals, or is a pedophile?

Ryan, your reply has done nothing but make me think that I've made a valid point that you can't defend.

Lets not forget that my whole reason behind not supporting gay marriages was for the reason that if we accept it as being okay into our society it makes those who are into these other taboo's that much closer to getting what they want. I would think most homosexuals are just as grossed out by incest and the alike as straight people, but I really don't understand why given they all make the same claims of being born that way, have zero control over it, and nature or "god" has created them that way!

[Ryan]

the point you made isnt valid. its called discrimination. the sooner you understand that the sooner we can stop debating. now this time i truly am done replying to this thread. all you are doing is asking questions that cant be answered because they are filled with so many contradictions. point is, sex is sex and love is love. get the hell out of the 1800's.

this is 2008, i think its time you see that there are gay people, and you realise we are the same as you and anybody else. wake up. goodbye.

[barcodeunit]

http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj137/LiLMeL9882/nobama.jpg

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[barcodeunit]

http://www.shirthat.com/images/Nobama08.jpg


http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd197/recroominc/Nobama-1.gif


http://www.mccainstore.com/images/MO601-1002.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v470/clausewitz666/NOBAMA.jpg

[moonstar]

I would think most homosexuals are just as grossed out by incest and the alike as straight people, but I really don't understand why given they all make the same claims of being born that way, have zero control over it, and nature or "god" has created them that way!

The difference is though, that there is very little reason to believe that gay people would say that paedophilia or incest is a natural tendency.

Also, while there is convincing evidence that genetics (and other biological effects) plays a non-trivial role in homo or hetero orientation, I don't think there is anything like the same for the other two.

Just because some of these groups may claim the same thing, doesn't mean that one group, gay people, are being hypocritical - many probably feel that they have been born gay, but would not necessarily extend the same explanation to those other activities.

This is exactly the same as a heterosexual person saying "I have little control over my heterosexual orientation, but I would not necessarily agree that this is anything similar to what motivates the people who get involved with xyz"

[Smurfwicked]

I don't think there's any reason to believe that gay people would say that paedophilia or incest is a natural tendency.

Also, while there is convincing evidence that genetics plays a significant role in homo or hetero orientation, I don't believe there is anything like the same for the other two.

Just because some of these groups may claim the same thing, doesn't mean that one group, gay people, are being hypocritical - many probably feel that they have been born gay, but would not necessarily extend the same explanation to those other activities.

This is exactly the same as a heterosexual person saying "I have little control over my heterosexual orientation, but I would not necessarily agree that this is anything similar to what motivates the people who get involved with xyz"

As a parent, this is a big issue to me because I already have to worry about whether or not there is a known pedophile living in my neighborhood, much less a lot of pedophiles seem to get a slap on the wrist compared to some minor drug offenses. Here is a link related to the study of finding out if pedophiles are born pedophiles just like gay people are born gay. I think its also important to know that some pedophiles have used such studies in their defense towards what they've done:

Scientists look for neurological clues to pedophilia (http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20071026/pedophilia_071026/20071027?hub=TopStories)

To all of you that used the fact that a portion of the animal population is gay, I provide you with this evidence that animals also engage in incest:

But how does Lieberman explain incestuous behavior both in captive and wild animals, such as juvenile male chimps who attempt sex with their mothers?

"These systems aren't foolproof," she said. "Sometimes the [female chimp mother] lets male offspring mount her if she's frightened and wants to calm down. But most of the time, females squawk and reject the attempts."

Source: Incest Not So Taboo in Natural World (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,323429,00.html)

If all of you would do some research you'd find that people that are into incest, pedophiles and other taboo's are using progress of the gay rights movement to support their own movements. Because of this some countries (Germany, I think) has decriminalized incest relationships with consenting adults.

Just like with homosexuality we all once thought people was made gay and not born gay, now with some research we're finding that all of sexual aspects is stemmed from something genetic in the brain. Are we supposed to accept every single alternative lifestyle, and if we're not why are gay people supposed to be treated differently?

edit: Goodness this issue should have its own topic! LOL

[feebee]

learn How To Speak Proper English, Then Ask That Question Again..

Love This Guy.

[Smurfwicked]

I was hoping somebody would try to come up with something to further debate the gay marriage issue, or could argue something different that can't be argued or supported from other alternative lifestyles.

You mention one of his offices having a "Che Guevara" flag like it's a bad thing lol.

Love This Guy.

Maybe that was a biased considering everything I know about Che is what was taught to me by U.S. Government probably something similar to the anti-terrorism related education that Tammy got while in the military. It wasn't something I've looked into researching myself. One thing is for sure, the CIA considered him to be a terrorist, communist and a mass murder, was the 160+ people he killed somehow justified IDK, but I'm sure the family members of his victims don't think so. Perhaps some of you might be a little confused on what is considered terrorism, the Ku Klux Klan is a known domestic terrorist organization yet they seem to be free to hold clan rallies and what not. This is because although members of the KKK have committed acts of terrorism, they've never done them in the name of the KKK itself. Domestic terrorist can't get away with what international terrorist that hide behind the borders of other (mostly 3rd world) nations can.

Speaking of the KKK, I think its now been proven that Obama refused to accept the money but the Tenn. chapter of the KKK donated 250K to the Obama campaign. However I think Snoop Dogg is still accusing Obama for accepting money from the KKK. I could care less if he took it or not, but I was more curious to why the KKK would donate to Obama. Best thing I can think of since the KKK supports abortions of black babies and donates money to organizations such as plan parenthood specifically for their money to be used in the abortions of black babies it makes sense to support the pro choice person.

Also note: Plan Parenthood has endorsed Obama, and its been proven that they've accepted money specifically to abort black babies.
Sources:
http://www.idahostatesman.com/235/story/308723.html
http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2008/apr/08040303.html


"Several years ago, when 17,000 aborted babies were found in a dumpster outside a pathology laboratory in Los, Angeles, California, some 12-15,000 were observed to be black."

--Erma Clardy Craven (deceased)
Social Worker and Civil Rights Leader

Source: http://www.blackgenocide.org/

[Mimi]

"So basically we have a open gay person saying that you're a man that loves another man and you should be able to marry him. But you're saying that adult brothers & sisters can't marry? And yet you're calling me the hiprocrit? Before you say, its because incest is sick (which I would agree), think to yourself how many people think the same thing about homosexuality."

Homosexuality and incest are not similar things...

BOLDED- Isn't that what people used to say about interacial marriages?

:online2long:

[Andrew2]

I think we all agree that incest and homosexuality are not similar things and I don't think anyones even suggested it.. The list I was mentioning would contain straight sex, gay sex, incest, pedophilia, and other forms of erotic behavior solely based on sex. That's why they're being brought together under the same topic because all of these things people are either for or against when we should all be tolerant of each and every one of them rather than saying it's sick since things change and what may seem "GROSS EW WTF" now maybe be "OH HI, IM GLAD YOU MADE THAT CHOICE" in the future.

[Mimi]

I think we all agree that incest and homosexuality are not similar things and I don't think anyones even suggested it.. The list I was mentioning would contain straight sex, gay sex, incest, pedophilia, and other forms of erotic behavior solely based on sex. That's why they're being brought together under the same topic because all of these things people are either for or against when we should all be tolerant of each and every one of them rather than saying it's sick since things change and what may seem "GROSS EW WTF" now maybe be "OH HI, IM GLAD YOU MADE THAT CHOICE" in the future.

We should be tolerant of incest? We should be tolerant of bestiality? I honestly don't believe you should be tolerant of everything, you have to draw a line somewhere. I still don't think you can compare sex (whether it's gay sex, straight sex) with incest, pedophilia, etc. You can't be born a pedophile. You can't be born a molester. You can't be born an incestor (I'm quite aware that I made this word up btw lol). However, you can be born gay.

[famazingspacedotcom]

He is just saying that some people do think of them in the same way. Some people are disgusted by what they don't believe to be normal... and to those people, gays marriage is the same as incest marriage. I honestly don't believe that Smurf thinks like that.

So please... can't we all just get along? :sweatdrop:

[Smurfwicked]

We should be tolerant of incest? We should be tolerant of bestiality? I honestly don't believe you should be tolerant of everything, you have to draw a line somewhere. I still don't think you can compare sex (whether it's gay sex, straight sex) with incest, pedophilia, etc. You can't be born a pedophile. You can't be born a molester. You can't be born an incestor (I'm quite aware that I made this word up btw lol). However, you can be born gay.

Draw the line somewhere! - That is exactly what my reason is behind not supporting gay marriages! And I guess you missed it but I've already posted links to studies supporting that pedophiles are in fact born pedophiles just like homosexuals are born homosexuals. At one time people tried to cure homosexuality much like today they're trying to cure people that want to have sex with children. Can you not see what is happening here? I also posted the links to research showing that incest occurs in nature amongst animals just as homosexuality does. My whole point is that incest lovers, animal sex fiends, and pedophiles all can make the same argument that any homosexual can. I find it hard to believe that a person could think that a gay person is born gay but a person who wants to have sex with children, animals, or a family member wasn't born that way? What about homosexual pedophiles, was they born homosexual but later in life transformed into a pedophile?

Sources:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,323429,00.html

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20071026/pedophilia_071026/20071027?hub=TopStories

He is just saying that some people do think of them in the same way. Some people are disgusted by what they don't believe to be normal... and to those people, gays marriage is the same as incest marriage. I honestly don't believe that Smurf thinks like that.

So please... can't we all just get along? :sweatdrop:

I don't think like that or else I would support gay marriages. If I honestly thought this movement would stop at gay marriages I could care less who married who. But its not going to, there is already pedophiles that has done horrible things to children that are walking the streets today because their defense consisted of "they was born that way" and if its okay to be born gay it should be okay to be born a pedophile. Years from now are we going to be telling our children not to worry about being molested because pedophiles are born that way?

So many of you are presenting opinions which is great, but that doesn't compare to actual facts, studies, and research so I urge anybody to prove me wrong with facts and not opinions!

[minnseoelite]

That is exactly what my reason is behind not supporting gay marriages!


Ok I don't agree with the gay lifestyle but I don't think myself, you, or a bunch of fat, old, overpaid judges should say whether they have the right to get married and be legally recognized the same as hetero couples.

I don't see how so many people can boast how they're so American and how McCain is soooo American and how Obama is anti-American but at the same time support hindering one of Americas greatest values, freedom. Freedom of choice, freedom of expression, and equality. Sounds like a bunch of hypocrites to me, no offense.

[Mimi]

Draw the line somewhere! - That is exactly what my reason is behind not supporting gay marriages! And I guess you missed it but I've already posted links to studies supporting that pedophiles are in fact born pedophiles just like homosexuals are born homosexuals. At one time people tried to cure homosexuality much like today they're trying to cure people that want to have sex with children. Can you not see what is happening here? I also posted the links to research showing that incest occurs in nature amongst animals just as homosexuality does. My whole point is that incest lovers, animal sex fiends, and pedophiles all can make the same argument that any homosexual can. I find it hard to believe that a person could think that a gay person is born gay but a person who wants to have sex with children, animals, or a family member wasn't born that way? What about homosexual pedophiles, was they born homosexual but later in life transformed into a pedophile?

Sources:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,323429,00.html

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20071026/pedophilia_071026/20071027?hub=TopStories


The article on pedophiles doesn't change my view. It's only a theory and theories are mere explanations. Theories aren't always right, you know. Maybe they are born that way but I don't think they are (just as many people think homosexual people aren't born that way).

I still don't think those things are comparable.

BOLDED- I disagree. Incest lovers, animal fiends, and pedophiles are manipulators who take advantage of people (and animals, too). Granted, in some instances they're ignorant and don't know what they're doing is wrong but in most cases, they do. It's not like gay people are going around forcing to people to become gay or something. They're just trying to live their life, they're not hurting anyone (unlike the other people previously listed).

[ajarchibald3]

This board saddens me sometimes with how stupid some of you are.

[moonstar]

... And I guess you missed it but I've already posted links to studies supporting that pedophiles are in fact born pedophiles just like homosexuals are born homosexuals.

I think there is a huge amount of more reliable research supporting biological influence in homosexuality than pedophilia, although no doubt it has been studied more.

Even so, let's just imagine that biological factors are found to influence a tendency to pedophila etc. People will still see it as morally wrong, because it causes damage to the other person, and in the case of incest, increased risk of deformities in children, for one thing.

Now how does this compare with homosexuality. You might not like or agree with the lifestyle, but is it really affecting you so much, or destroying the fabric of society? I don't think so..


What about homosexual pedophiles, was they born homosexual but later in life transformed into a pedophile?


And what about heterosexual pedophiles, were they born heterosexual but later turned pedophile?

There doesn't appear to be any significant link between pedophilia and sexual orientation, although it is in the interests of various groups to promote the idea of such a link as a form of "guilt by association".

[Smurfwicked]

I think there is a huge amount of more reliable research supporting biological influence in homosexuality than pedophilia, although no doubt it has been studied more.


True, the debate over causes for homosexuality has been studied for at least 30+ years compared to pedophilia being much more recent. However, I see history repeating itself people are now considering pedophilia a disease that people are born with, its considered a disease because its not normal behavior, much like what people thought about homosexuality some 30 years ago.


Even so, let's just imagine that biological factors are found to influence a tendency to pedophila etc. People will still see it as morally wrong, because it causes damage to the other person, and in the case of incest, increased risk of deformities in children, for one thing.


I would imagine that incest families would want to adopt children just like homosexuals have done for example Rosie O'Donnell. How does the dangers to incest relationships compare to homosexual males having the highest risk of HIV/Aids?


Now how does this compare with homosexuality. You might not like or agree with the lifestyle, but is it really affecting you so much, or destroying the fabric of society? I don't think so..


No it doesn't affect me, but neither does those who engage in those other alternative sexual lifestyles.


And what about heterosexual pedophiles, were they born heterosexual but later turned pedophile?


No I don't think they are, and that is exact opposite of what I'm saying. I'm saying its just as likely that these other sexual lifestyles come about at birth as does homosexuality.


There doesn't appear to be any significant link between pedophilia and sexual orientation, although it is in the interests of various groups to promote the idea of such a link as a form of "guilt by association".

Funny you should say that, because I can think of numerous things that support a direct link between the two. Mark Foley and 100s of Catholic Priest just to name a few. Here is a list of some sources which support my whole point:
Report: Pedophilia more common among 'gays' (http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?pageId=13722)
Study shows link between homosexuality and pedophilia (http://www.theinterim.com/2002/sept/02study.html)
Pedophiles Argue Their Case in the Journal of Homosexuality (http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/narth/arguecase.html)
Lesbian Legislator Promotes 'Pedophile Protection Act' in California (http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2004/sep/04090204.html)
Here we have the same person who has defended gay rights saying sex with animals is "fine:"
Frank Kameny, a hero to the homosexual community who was integral in pressuring the American Psychiatric Association to reclassify same-sex activities as "normal," has written to a pro-family organization that he believes bestiality is fine, "as long as the animal doesn't mind." (http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=66060)
This one is pro-gay rights but clearly links pedophiles to homosexuals:
Pedophilia in the Priesthood: Are Gays the Problem? (http://www.indegayforum.org/news/show/26709.html)

It seems some people are completely missing my point thinking I'm attacking gay rights, when I am actually trying to point out that the gay rights movement is doing nothing but making the other sexualities want their equal rights as well! IMHO our society is 100% ready to be supportive of homosexuals, but I think very differently about these other sexualities that are already starting scream for fairness in equal rights!

[moonstar]

I would imagine that incest families would want to adopt children just like homosexuals have done for example Rosie O'Donnell. How does the dangers to incest relationships compare to homosexual males having the highest risk of HIV/Aids?

For a start, it's not involving an innocent third party. Additionally, in areas of the world with high rates of HIV such as sub-saharan Africa, the overwhelming number of infections are in heterosexuals.


No it doesn't affect me, but neither does those who engage in those other alternative sexual lifestyles.
Well I respectfully disagree - I don't think you would be posting here if you didn't feel uneasy about them.


Funny you should say that, because I can think of numerous things that support a direct link between the two. Mark Foley and 100s of Catholic Priest just to name a few. Here is a list of some sources which support my whole point:

Well I checked those sites and was not much surprised to see that they all have a conservative bias. If you look for any objective source on the web you will find no connection between homosexuality and paedophilia - wikipedia isn't always right, but try that for a start.

Actually I was going to post that last link you found too, if you see halfway down it has a very reasonable point about gay priests -


Consider an analogy: The vast majority of rapists are male. But it does not follow (and it is not true, pace Andrea Dworkin) that the vast majority of males are rapists. Thus, eliminating males from a given population would not be a fair or appropriate way of curtailing rape. Analogously, even if most sexual abusers within the priesthood were gay, it would not follow that most gays within the priesthood were sexual abusers. Eliminating gays from the priesthood would be horribly unjust to the vast majority of gay priests, who are innocent of sexual abuse and as horrified by it as the rest of us.


I think people have been misled by the Church scandals due to the very fact that some Churchs (like the theatre) appear to attract gay priests, for some reason. Now if you have a larger gay population, of course there is going to be a higher percentage of abusers that will be gay, compared to the outside population.

But it doesn't mean in any way that homosexuals are more likely to be child abusers.


...who was integral in pressuring the American Psychiatric Association to reclassify same-sex activities as "normal," has written to a pro-family organization that he believes bestiality is fine, "as long as the animal doesn't mind."
lol!! The mind boggles..


It seems some people are completely missing my point thinking I'm attacking gay rights, when I am actually trying to point out that the gay rights movement is doing nothing but making the other sexualities want their equal rights as well!

When you say - "if gay groups get more rights, then these other groups will automatically benefit" - I think that's very unlikely to happen and in my opinion is not a reason for being unfairly suspicious about a particular group.

I think this thread is involving itself in too much seriousness now for MSP :redface:

[Smurfwicked]

You argue your points well.

For a start, it's not involving an innocent third party. Additionally, in areas of the world with high rates of HIV such as sub-saharan Africa, the overwhelming number of infections are in heterosexuals.


Very true, but Africa is very different from the United States you've got a lack of education and very low quality medical care. In example:

A study by researchers in the United States suggests two out of three new infections are caused by contaminated needles.

They have reviewed hundreds of studies on HIV transmission across Africa dating back 20 years.

They believe most cases are linked to poor hygiene in hospitals, with patients being injected with needles contaminated with the virus.
Source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/2783229.stm

As for the other innocent third parties, there is already legal battles being fought to legalize incest amongst consenting adults (not children).
"If the Supreme Court says you have the right to consensual sex within your home," he told a reporter, "then you have the right to bigamy, you have the right to polygamy, you have the right to incest, you have the right to adultery. You have the right to anything."
Source: http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2007/05/02/lawful_incest_may_be_on_its_way/



When you say - "if gay groups get more rights, then these other groups will automatically benefit" - I think that's very unlikely to happen and in my opinion is not a reason for being unfairly suspicious about a particular group.

I think this thread is involving itself in too much seriousness now for MSP :redface:

The gay rights movement has the same exact enemy as those that are involved in other sexual lifestyles. Not to mention you have the same people who has fought for gay rights now fighting for equal rights of incest couples, pedophiles and the alike.

When I originally made this argument it was specifically to state that those people of other alternative sexual preferences could use the same defense as they was born that way. I honestly never expected to find such common ground backed with scientific evidence and a history of normality in nature between to the two. I haven't once argued what was right or wrong, but all I'm saying is if we can't stop a man from marrying another man who is to say a farmer can't marry his horse?

[Andrew2]

Peta!!!!!!!!!

[Ryan]

smurf get a ****ing life buddy.

[Andrew2]

Ryan why do you have such a problem with him thinking that other groups will want equal rights? I thought that was the point of being tolerant, If you want people to accept you maybe you should consider accepting them for who they are? :D

[Smurfwicked]

Peta!!!!!!!!!

Just to show a few of the cases:
Historical cases

[edit] Horse

* May 1998 - The Jerry Springer Show had an episode titled "I married a horse". The show was ultimately not aired by many stations on the planned date, apparently due to concerns about the acceptability of broadcasting an episode in which a man admitted to a long term emotional and sexual relationship of this kind. The man and his horse later participated in a British documentary on the subject.[1]

[edit] Dolphin

* December 2005 - forty one year old Sharon Tendler of Great Britain unofficially married Cindy, a male dolphin held at the Dolphin Reef dolphinarium in Eilat, Israel, in a ceremony where she offered fish and the dolphin 'kissed' her. She had been visiting Cindy regularly for the past fifteen years. Tendler requested permission from the dolphin's trainer for the "wedding". The marriage, painted romantically by the media, was in her words considered "a bit of fun" after her friends joked about her being single at that age.

Do they not have animal rights in the UK?

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human-animal_marriage

[Andrew2]

I don't want to know about that gross stuff, Sexually abusing an animal and saying it's "Okay because we're in Love" when the animal has no say is wrong, just like pedophilia with young children. I just don't like it because the child/animal just isn't completely aware of what's going on, it's a form of rape and animal molestation. The teachers who falls in love with their 15 year old students are the kind of pedophiles I'm talking about, the kids are old enough to know what they're doing and in that one case the kid grew up and took care of their kids and they're still married and he's a legal age now. It's not like she was a kindergarten teacher and start molesting kids but the media does make it seem like that's how wrong it was.

I guess that's where my line is drawn.

[urheart]

Instead of being flat-out bigots, we need to get back on the topic at hand, and that is the political parties at hand.

Watching their convention, it seemed as if they were attacking Obama and bragging about their credentials (many of Palin's being false), more than talking about their plans of making this a better country. What kind of loser lies about their credentials in hopes of winning an election?

You really need to watch this CNN segment before you go any further on attacking Obama simply because some of his views are different.

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/1Tc7BF_Fd7I&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/1Tc7BF_Fd7I&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

Wow...she told so many lies that if she was Pinocchio, she could give a woman a hysterectomy with her nose.

[gowanstl24]

I don't want to know about that gross stuff, Sexually abusing an animal and saying it's "Okay because we're in Love" when the animal has no say is wrong, just like pedophilia with young children. I just don't like it because the child/animal just isn't completely aware of what's going on, it's a form of rape and animal molestation. The teachers who falls in love with their 15 year old students are the kind of pedophiles I'm talking about, the kids are old enough to know what they're doing and in that one case the kid grew up and took care of their kids and they're still married and he's a legal age now. It's not like she was a kindergarten teacher and start molesting kids but the media does make it seem like that's how wrong it was.

I guess that's where my line is drawn.

Your post made me think about two totally separate South Park episodes.

I love South Park.

[Andrew2]

I was thinking about Ike's relationship as well.

[gowanstl24]

Heehee - yup that one and the other episode with the PETA camp.

http://images.southparkstudios.com/media/images/808/808_img_13.jpg

[Mimi]

Well since the convention was mentioned and this thread is about Obama, I just came across this on a facebook note and wanted to share for the heck of it :).

"From: David Plouffe
Subject: What you just saw

Friend --

I wasn't planning on sending you something tonight. But if you saw what I saw from the Republican convention, you know that it demands a response.

I saw John McCain's attack squad of negative, cynical politicians. They lied about Barack Obama and Joe Biden, and they attacked you for being a part of this campaign.

But worst of all -- and this deserves to be noted -- they insulted the very idea that ordinary people have a role to play in our political process.

You know that despite what John McCain and his attack squad say, everyday people have the power to build something extraordinary when we come together.

Both Rudy Giuliani and Sarah Palin specifically mocked Barack's experience as a community organizer on the South Side of Chicago more than two decades ago, where he worked with people who had lost jobs and been left behind when the local steel plants closed.

Let's clarify something for them right now.

Community organizing is how ordinary people respond to out-of-touch politicians and their failed policies.

And it's no surprise that, after eight years of George Bush, millions of people have found that by coming together in their local communities they can change the course of history. That promise is what our campaign has been about from the beginning.

Throughout our history, ordinary people have made good on America's promise by organizing for change from the bottom up. Community organizing is the foundation of the civil rights movement, the women's suffrage movement, labor rights, and the 40-hour workweek. And it's happening today in church basements and community centers and living rooms across America.

Meanwhile, we still haven't gotten a single idea during the entire Republican convention about the economy and how to lift a middle class so harmed by the Bush-McCain policies.

It's now clear that John McCain's campaign has decided that desperate lies and personal attacks -- on Barack Obama and on you -- are the only way they can earn a third term for the Bush policies that McCain has supported more than 90 percent of the time.

But you can send a crystal clear message."

[feebee]

Well since the convention was mentioned and this thread is about Obama, I just came across this on a facebook note and wanted to share for the heck of it :).

"From: David Plouffe
Subject: What you just saw

Friend --

I wasn't planning on sending you something tonight. But if you saw what I saw from the Republican convention, you know that it demands a response.

I saw John McCain's attack squad of negative, cynical politicians. They lied about Barack Obama and Joe Biden, and they attacked you for being a part of this campaign.

But worst of all -- and this deserves to be noted -- they insulted the very idea that ordinary people have a role to play in our political process.

You know that despite what John McCain and his attack squad say, everyday people have the power to build something extraordinary when we come together.

Both Rudy Giuliani and Sarah Palin specifically mocked Barack's experience as a community organizer on the South Side of Chicago more than two decades ago, where he worked with people who had lost jobs and been left behind when the local steel plants closed.

Let's clarify something for them right now.

Community organizing is how ordinary people respond to out-of-touch politicians and their failed policies.

And it's no surprise that, after eight years of George Bush, millions of people have found that by coming together in their local communities they can change the course of history. That promise is what our campaign has been about from the beginning.

Throughout our history, ordinary people have made good on America's promise by organizing for change from the bottom up. Community organizing is the foundation of the civil rights movement, the women's suffrage movement, labor rights, and the 40-hour workweek. And it's happening today in church basements and community centers and living rooms across America.

Meanwhile, we still haven't gotten a single idea during the entire Republican convention about the economy and how to lift a middle class so harmed by the Bush-McCain policies.

It's now clear that John McCain's campaign has decided that desperate lies and personal attacks -- on Barack Obama and on you -- are the only way they can earn a third term for the Bush policies that McCain has supported more than 90 percent of the time.

But you can send a crystal clear message."
well amen! :clap:

[Chris]

aw kk new controversy

[tootie000]

i love obama

[tylaa]

I saw this shirt a few days ago..

"Give Al-Qaeda a chance, vote Barack Obama 2008!"

LOL roflrofl

[GREGO]

I saw this shirt a few days ago..

"Give Al-Qaeda a chance, vote Barack Obama 2008!"

LOL roflrofl

that has to be the dumbest thing I ever heard

was an obese person with knarly BO wearing that shirt?

more than likely

[tylaa]

Nope I searched for "John McCain shirts"

[Kasami2k4]

Remember when it was BUsh vs Kerry and they attacked kerry by making his botox procedure public? :O

[nina]

OMIGOD LOL.
Miss teacher bangs Ike or something hee. (:
AHH, i loved that episode.

haha

[Shaliza]

These kind of posts makes me scared that some people can vote.

[rufus]

These kind of posts makes me scared that some people can vote.

It scares me if you yourself can vote...........ROFL

[Kasami2k4]

Quoted from Obamas book, Dreams of my father

The actual quote from the book is from page 261 and is as follows: "Of course, not all my conversations in immigrant communities follow this easy pattern. In the wake of 9/11, my meetings with Arab and Pakistani Americans, for example, have a more urgent quality, for the stories of detentions and FBI questioning and hard stares from neighbors have shaken their sense of security and belonging. They have been reminded that the history of immigration in this country has a dark underbelly; they need specific reassurances that their citizenship really means something, that America has learned the right lessons from the Japanese internments during World War II, and that I will stand with them should the political winds shift in an ugly direction."

Can somebody explain to me what this means, please? :)

[babydoll]

id rather take my chances to a president who is pro in war depending my country:gunsmilie:


rather that a president that might be sidding a terrorist :gun_bandana:

and i might be watching more scenario like 7/11 and etc one day :(

[Riseykins]

This thread is a load of crap.

Yay!

I'm not going to continue reading, as on page one I saw a hell of a lot of ignorance! I can only assume that it'll get worse.

Go Obama! :D

EDIT: Oh and I just wanted to add that McCain can't even legally run for president because he was not born in the USA. Hahhhh. Bloody foreigner. :p

[Jazzylee77]

What ignorance? What Lies? Too many empty assertions in what I read of this thread. Okay I'll respond to the last one...not to pick on you or anything, but you are adding crap instead of clearing anything up.

EDIT: Oh and I just wanted to add that McCain can't even legally run for president because he was not born in the USA. Hahhhh. Bloody foreigner. :p

This is false.

Congress in 1790 passed legislation stating that "The children of citizens of the United States that may be born beyond the sea, or outside the limits of the United States, shall be considered as natural-born citizens of the United States."

[Kasami2k4]

Riseykins is a little kid dude :p

[Andrew2]

No I think she's just from England lol :P I don't know.
If McCain couldn't legally run for president he wouldn't be representing the republican side right now..

[Jazzylee77]

Quoted from Obamas book, Dreams of my father

The actual quote from the book is from page 261 and is as follows: "Of course, not all my conversations in immigrant communities follow this easy pattern. In the wake of 9/11, my meetings with Arab and Pakistani Americans, for example, have a more urgent quality, for the stories of detentions and FBI questioning and hard stares from neighbors have shaken their sense of security and belonging. They have been reminded that the history of immigration in this country has a dark underbelly; they need specific reassurances that their citizenship really means something, that America has learned the right lessons from the Japanese internments during World War II, and that I will stand with them should the political winds shift in an ugly direction."

Can somebody explain to me what this means, please? :)

Obama is describing the US as a country who like the nazis, rounded up people such as the Japanese- Americans, based on race. But giving assurance to American Arabs and Pakistanis that this will not happen. Of course internment of American Arabs and Pakistanis hasn't happened, and isn't likely to happen. So, while he is historically accurate, he is also may be feeding into their fears a bit. (sorry, haven't read the full context of the books chapter)

The US didn't want to have any part of WWII, and remained on the sidelines till attacked by Japan. World War 2 happened on a massive scale causing 72 MILLION DEATHS, including 4 million POWS while in captivity. While Roosevelt's internment of the 110,000 Japanese and Japanese Americans was a terrible thing, knowing the context makes at least the cause of this error understandable. It was a mistaken effort to protect the Pacific Coast.

More than 40 years later Ronald Reagan signed legislation apologizing for the internment and giving 1.9 Billion in reparations surviving internees and descendants. SO it sure seems that at least one President understands the error made in the 1940s.

Another political note on this. The 60s Civil Rights movement was largely driven by republicans, the first real success being Gerald Fords proclamation of the internments being wrong. Later civil liberties acts were fought along party lines. Democrats tend to rewrite that bit of history. So, while it is a nice promise from Obama to uphold these Civil Liberties, his question of whether we have learned the lesson, should really be directed toward the left.

[Kasami2k4]

Anyone ever seen equilibrium? We should totally follow that movies example >.>

[babydoll]

hope this terrorist issue about obama is not true :no:

but if this true and he will become a president we will be Al-Qaeda's slave:death:

and everyday there will be a bombing everywhere :2guns: and we all leave in a tunnel scared to death and saying i must vote mc cain:death::sweatdrop: peace to all:ninja:

we will be going to canda or mexico:punk:

[minnseoelite]

rofl these things are so effin funny. presidential candidates go through such a deep background probe during the general elections they probably know what both of them had for breakfast last month. it's all politics on both sides, just have to wade through all the b.s to find the truth and in politics even the truth ain't completely true so we're all f*cked either way lawlz

[bosshogg01]

this one time....at band camp....

[JordanSDMF]

Are you serious or do you really not know who he is?

I thought most of who once wore T-shirts with his face on it knew this by now I guess not. But Che Guevara was an international terrorist and mass murderer do some research.

Yeah, he was also a revolutionist and tried to do something good for cuba.

All of your points in this post are blunt, and probably bias. He may not have put his hand across his heart, but there may have been a reason for it. As a person running for president, I am pretty sure he just didn't do it. And there are many accusations saying he is not political. How is he not political when he wants to help this country, and support it. I don't think anyone can have more love for their country than someone who is running for president.

And that movie was just stupid. It turned in a simple scene into him trying to play with himself.

Do you also see it as correct for McCain to blatantly lie to America? How is that for a presidential candidate? I don't see that as very supportive to this nation.

And over all, I just approve of Obama's views more. I was never clear with the difference between democrat and republican growing up, but I chose to be a democrat just like the rest of my family.

It also sickens me how people will take stupid parts from Obama, and go for McCain because of it. Like people don't trust him because his middle name is Hussein, or because he is a Muslim. I have heard these things in person, so don't you think it's not happening. This is also worrying me, because they see Hilary, and she's a woman, and people don't want her for that reason. It's just all stupid.

Honestly, Go Obama.

[gehin08]

WHATEVER this is bs

[janebegood]

http://www.potflix.com/challenge/view/election-spoof?curr=baracky-ii


http://www.potflix.com/challenge/view/election-spoof?curr=baracky


Just live and have fun and forget everything else... ha ha ha!!!